Human Resources Committee on Feb. 5th, 2013

[Christiana Tings]

If there are problems, if they have to take an apprenticeship in another town, the federal office gives a certain subsidy to pay for the additional rent they have to pay.

[Hannes Barske]

Maybe I can add that the trainees and apprentices who leave the lower or higher secondary school and start an apprenticeship have to go to school. They have one or two years left before they are allowed to leave school.

We have a legal basis for that. They have to continue vocational training in the vocational schools. These vocational schools are organized and financed through the 16 länder, or provinces. That's where a large part of the public financing goes. So that question doesn't arise; they don't have to wonder how they will pay for their vocational school, because it is paid for.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Do the slightly older apprentices also receive a salary when they are doing the academic portion?

[Maximilian Metzger]

Yes.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I understood that the answer is yes. I can see you nodding your heads. Thank you.

My second question pertains to women.

In Germany, apparently 41% of the people participating in the apprenticeship program are women. In Canada, only 15% are women. How do you attract women to the program?

[Maximilian Metzger]

I don't think we can give you a serious answer to that question. It happens by itself. We don't really do anything. We don't interfere or guide it.

[Christiana Tings]

Everybody chooses the profession they would like to choose. It could be a carpenter, or it could be a hairdresser. You might have male or female apprentices. Some professions are more of a female profession, and others are more of a male profession. That's the same for the vocational training as it is for the academic training.

[Hannes Barske]

We are not talking about a program as such. It's not a program that has a beginning and an end. Our system is part of our education system in Germany. It's part and parcel of the whole education system. In Germany it's based on federal law, and it's guaranteed.

[Maximilian Metzger]

Maybe I can give you a comparison to academic education.

It used to be a fact that in the past there were fewer female students, but right now more than 50% of the students in the universities in Germany are female, and the same also goes for vocational training. It's a natural development. There were no special incentives or measures taken on the side of the government. We didn't do anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Madame Boutin-Sweet, for that exchange.

We'll now move to Mr. Daniel for his round of questioning.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses.

It sounds like you have the perfect system there, so my question is how many dropouts there are from your programs, where people actually drop out and change to other things, or don't complete their programs.

[Maximilian Metzger]

We do not have the latest numbers available. We can't give you a concrete answer.

I'm sure we do have a certain number of dropouts, which then is represented in the unemployment rate. We'll have to send you those numbers in a few days' time because the recent numbers just came out and we don't have them handy now.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Obviously, Germany is a growing nation with growing industry. Are you able to meet all the requirements for your apprentices in industry? In Canada, probably 80% of our industries are small businesses, small businesses being a few people up to about 100 people. It's very difficult for some of the smaller businesses to take on an apprentice. Do you have any comments on that?

[Maximilian Metzger]

Yes, we have a similar problem in Germany. We know it very well. It's sort of a labour market, and it depends on supply and demand. Right now we have a situation in which many spots are not being filled especially in small companies. The majority of companies in Germany are also small trade companies, and they have problems finding the right apprentices. That is, again, the job of the politicians to make sure that enough young people successfully complete their school education so they are ready and available for apprenticeships.

Do you have more concrete numbers, Christiana?

[Christiana Tings]

Yes, I would like to add that it's not only a problem of the number of apprenticeship spots that are available, but it's also the demographic development in Germany. We have fewer and fewer young people obtaining their school leaving degree. That's why it is important to keep apprenticeships attractive. That's why our federal ministry started a new campaign last year called “Practically Unbeatable”. This campaign is aimed at informing young people in the schools, in the youth centres, about this option of learning a trade to make sure we have a sufficient number of skilled labourers in the future.

[Maren Verfürth]

An additional point is that there are professions that everybody likes to go into. Electronics expert, technician, and secretary are relatively popular, but then other jobs are less popular. A lot of people send in their applications for those popular spots. The other companies might have more problems attracting apprentices. We have several programs for that to make sure that all the companies and all the professions find apprentices.

[Maximilian Metzger]

I would like to add that Germany is part of Europe. Right now efforts are being made to bring in young people from other countries in Europe to Germany, to interest them in an apprenticeship in Germany. A certain number of young people from Spain do not have many prospects in their country right now and they attempt to learn German and then come to Germany to be an apprentice.

In the meantime, Mr. Barske has found the number of dropouts.

[Hannes Barske]

Yes indeed, you put your finger on an important problem. The system is not that perfect yet. We still have a dropout rate of about 25%. Every fourth apprentice doesn't finish. That's pretty high. That has to do with what my colleague just mentioned, the fact that we have an unsaturated market. We have a number of open apprenticeship spots and that leads to a situation whereby young people might change their mind and decide to go into another job. It's not as it was 10 or 12 years ago when we had a high unemployment rate and anybody who had an apprenticeship spot was happy to have it and wouldn't leave it. That is also a reason we have a higher dropout rate right now.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Obviously the education system across Europe is not the same. How do you deal with foreign qualifications from people coming into your system?

[Christiana Tings]

In the European Union we have free movement of workers, so if a young person from Spain wants to come to Germany to start training, he can do that. He can use what is available in Germany just as well as any German would.

[Maximilian Metzger]

A Spanish school leaving degree gives you the right to start training in Germany. The Spanish schools are just as good as the German schools.

[Christiana Tings]

In Europe we have a very permeable system, but even on a worldwide basis, there's a lot of interest in coming to work in Germany. That's why a new law was instituted last year. It's a new law on recognition of international exams to make sure there's a basis to evaluate whether somebody coming from India with a certain degree has the right to apply for an evaluation. We can say that his degree is equivalent or he has to take additional training to come up to par with German education. We're developing that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for that. We've certainly gone over time.

We'll now move to Mr. Simms for his round of questioning.

Mr. Simms, if you want to participate in this round, go ahead.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Yes, I do.

Say I have a business in Canada, hypothetically, in the aerospace industry, that I make parts for airplanes, and I want to open a branch in Germany, but in order for me to set up there, I need a highly technical skill. Tell me where, as a company owner, I can find out who is available among all recent graduates in the aerospace industry, or any industry for that matter.

[Maximilian Metzger]

That would be the chambers of commerce and industry, the organizations that the individual companies are organized in within their industry, the industry associations and the chambers of commerce and industry.