Human Resources Committee on Feb. 5th, 2013

[Mathew Wilson]

I'll begin with the comparison between Germany and Canada, just as a starting point.

Our education systems and our linkages between employers, unions, government, and the education system are fundamentally different. The way unions and industry work together to kind of set the agenda with local educators makes a huge difference in terms of how students go through the system.

It's very much more a hands-on system, where students beginning at 15 or 16 years of age are basically brought in to be, I don't want to say “apprentices”, but kind of young apprentices in manufacturing or different business environments. It's very difficult for kids to even get into post-secondary education unless they have the support or sponsorship of a company. It's a very different system from what we have here.

I think it would be quite the transformational change if we were suggesting that Canada would accept a similar type of program. It also probably directly reflects the unemployment rate, where there is a much greater linkage between schools, universities, and employment. The linkage between them is much different.

The challenge that a lot of Canadian companies have, in looking at the local markets and employment rate, is that a lot of times it's not that they don't want to hire the youth. It's trying to find the youth who will actually show up on time, do the job, not complain about it, and show up sober, which is something that....

You don't like to joke about it, but it is a reality. I think times have changed now, compared with what it was like 20 or so years ago. I think there are some realities.

Again, when we survey our members and we talk to our members about what their priorities are, they always want to hire local. They like hiring youth, because they can bring them into their system and bring them along in the way they want them to work, but it is very difficult to get the commitment from the students and the youth to be able to do those things. It's a bit on both sides.

As to how we change that, again, this goes back to the societal challenges we have that we need to all work on together.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for that.

Thank you, Mr. Shory.

We'll conclude with Mr. Cuzner.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'll be as quick as I can.

Thank you to both of you for being here today.

Mr. Diotte, I want to thank you on behalf of the committee for the great hospitality we got with SaskPower when we were in Estevan.

Mr. Wilson, if there are a couple of your companies or a couple of your members who really have this down pat, who are doing good work, who are having success in this, perhaps you could elaborate on that. What are some of those companies that are doing it really well?

One of the problems we heard was the apprehension on the part of some companies to invest in an employee when once they're trained, they're gone. Are the companies who are having success looking for a commitment post-journeyman or something? Are they looking at those caveats?

Maybe you could respond to that, and then I have a quick question for Mr. Diotte as well.

[Mathew Wilson]

Rather than picking out any one company.... You kind of hit a good point, though, in the conversation. The companies that are having successes tend to be the ones that are larger and have a lot more resources. The companies that struggle in terms of bringing in apprentices, bringing in youth, and keeping them for the long term are typically the smaller companies with a lot less resources. They have less ability to connect with local institutions, whether that be at the high school or the college and university levels. That really is where a lot of the challenges lie.

You could look at companies like Bombardier, for example, if you want to name a specific company. They do a fantastic job connecting with the local education systems, both upstream and down, and then bringing the individuals along and mentoring them through their system. But if you went to Newfoundland, for example, and found an SME with 20 employees, that would be on a very different scale, with very different abilities.

The larger companies—whether that's typically the large global OEMs, and including, I would assume, companies like SaskPower—have a lot easier ability to have the full range of services available and have a lot easier time bringing them in. Plus they have the brand name recognition that kids will be drawn to. It's a lot different when you start talking about smaller companies. That's where a lot of the challenges are, but it's also where a lot of the employment is.

I hope that helps.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That's good. I do appreciate that.

Mr. Diotte, when you take in linemen, let's say, are they coming in raw or are you taking them in from accredited training institutions where they have taken a lineman's course?

[Jim Diotte]

Typically, they come in raw. We'll train them right from when they get out of high school—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

—the way you want them trained. With the classroom time, would they go for a period of time with classroom training?

[Jim Diotte]

It's a four-year program where they'll do some work—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Is it integrated, or is it in the field and then in the classroom?

[Jim Diotte]

It's in the field and in the classroom, yes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Do they maintain an income stream from SaskPower? There's no EI or anything like that.

[Jim Diotte]

No.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Great. That would make sense. The other deterrent we heard about was if an apprentice has to go back to school, the delay in getting EI benefits.

The last point is about the pay scale. Are you seeing that as any kind of a detriment? Now you can get work in a lot of places in the west. I've got a son who's making $30 an hour as a labourer right now. He's using his arts degree to shovel snow in Fort McMurray. Then there are guys who are going back to take trades, and they start off at $18 an hour in the first year. Do you hear any reflection on the pay scale?

[Jim Diotte]

We are definitely seeing that. It is causing a bit of a challenge for us in terms of attracting youth to the trades jobs, when they can make very good money and not have to go through the hassle of that education. Where there's growth, there's opportunity, and where there's opportunity, it's a generation that's not afraid to move.

SaskPower benefited greatly from the last generation of employees. We had less than a 2% attrition rate for 30 years. Once you joined SaskPower, you stayed until you retired. We're trying to come to grips with a very different workforce in the future than we've benefited from in the past, and it's causing us to really rethink a lot of these programs that we're talking about with you today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cuzner. Your point was well made.

We'd like to thank both of you for presenting, and answering questions.

We're going to suspend for a brief moment. I'd ask all the members to remain at the table because we have some committee business to deal with.

The witnesses are free to go. Once again, thank you very much for presenting.

I might also mention for the purposes of the committee that the clerk reminds me that she would like to receive the submission of witnesses for the next study by February 14, which would be next Thursday. It's a week from this Friday, just before the break week, so if you could put your mind towards that, that would be good.

I think the witnesses have left, and their staff I would imagine are leaving. While they're doing that, I might mention to the committee that there is a motion that was proposed for consideration by Mr. Cleary. As you can see, he's not here, but with unanimous consent, we can proceed, or the member who's valiantly substituting for him can move the motion. What I'd probably do is ask if there is consent to proceed with the motion as it is. Seeing no objection, I don't see it as necessary for you to move the motion, although you could have, so the motion—

Mr. Mayes, do you have a point?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Before we get into the motion, could we move in camera? The reason for this request is that the motion deals with a subject that is currently in a class action. So just to give freedom to the committee members to speak openly about the issue, I think it would be wise to move in camera. If there's a wish to bring the motion out in public after the discussion, I would have no problem with that, but right now I think it would be wise to deal with this in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

There are a couple of points. Number one, the motion is on the floor without it having been moved by Mr. Morin. I understand that the motion to move in camera is not debatable, but a certain amount of explanation obviously is something that I generally allow, to some measure, just to get a feel for where we're going with this. But I understand it's not debatable so the point would be to take a vote on it.

Did you have a matter of debate?

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Just for the purpose of clarification, I appreciate what you're saying about the matter being before the courts, but the motion clearly just asks for the minister to appear so that we can question her about the breach of privacy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Okay, hold on. We're not going to get into a debate on this thing. We'll deal with the motion by having a recorded vote on it.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

We'll suspend long enough to go in camera, and then we'll proceed.

[Proceedings continue in camera]