Evidence of meeting #86 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workplace.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Barbara Jaworski  Chief Executive Officer, Workplace Institute
Louis-Martin Parent  Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Corinne Pohlmann  Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Tim Jones  President and Chief Executive Officer, Skills Connect, ThirdQuarter
Susan Barkman  Vice-President, Marketing and Communications, Skills Connect, ThirdQuarter
David Whitten  Employment Lawyer, Whitten and Lublin
June Muir  Chief Executive Officer, Windsor, Unemployed Help Centre

12:10 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Louis-Martin Parent

The point about self-employment that Corinne made is very important, especially here in Ottawa. Starting your own business is not something that might come naturally to mind; it's always either government or big business. Having more tools to encourage that kind of entrepreneurship is probably very important.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Okay.

Mr. Cuzner, if you want to conclude, please do.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Yes, I have a couple of points here.

I still have trouble when we refer to older people as 52. I think I'm just a post-adolescent 52-year-old.

You commented that the employers are getting older too. So are they becoming more or less willing to take on older employees? Is it a fact that if some training's involved, somebody in the latter stage of a business is wanting to draw some equity out of that business as opposed to investing in training? What are your thoughts on the employers?

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

We do know that 65% of small-business owners want to exit their business in the next 10 years. So there is a succession issue here. That gives you a sense—

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

That's always a problem.

June 4th, 2013 / 12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

—of the aging demographics. We are not immune to it in the small business sector either.

What I'm saying is anecdotal, but that you tend to want to hire people who reflect you. So if you are a little older, you may get the response, “Well, I'm willing to work another 10 years”. In fact, most small business owners tell us they are going to work until they are 70 or 75. That's just the nature of the business they've chosen to be in.

That's why for me it's also about strongly encouraging older workers to think about self-employment and/or working at smaller firms, because I do think there's a little bit more openness to bringing some of those folks on.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

As we are talking about the role of the federal government in this, there are a couple of disconnects. When we look at the increase in youth unemployment over the last seven years, we see that it has gone from 11% up to 14.5%, but we also see that the government cease its support for youth employment centres—which have traditionally provided opportunity for young people during the course of the summer. One of the recommendations from CFIB is about the need for more information on where we can access older workers.

Has Service Canada not been doing a good job? You would think that would be the natural collective for matching workers and letting workers know what skills, training, and opportunities there are. That's what Service Canada is for. Is that a role that the CFIB feels is not being met?

And maybe your group could comment as well, Barbara.

12:15 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Louis-Martin Parent

Actually, the first part of the EI changes in particular was to push more information to both employers and employees about EI claimants, in particular.

But the more information out there for people who are looking for work the better, not just for youth workers but also for first nations, people with disabilities and that kind of thing, to make sure that we know those people are out there and have skills that can be brought to the workplace.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Ms. Jaworski, did you wish to make a comment, or not?

12:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Workplace Institute

Barbara Jaworski

Yes. I think that part of what needs to change, as we discussed, is that we need to see some innovation and different kinds of approaches in the workplace. It's not an either/or proposition, that just because older workers stay, there won't be an opportunity for younger workers. I think that's a dangerous way of looking at growing our economy.

I think workplaces really need to focus on utilizing their older workers in a much different way. I think that mentoring, teaching what they know, and understanding how to transfer knowledge to younger workers is going to become a bigger element in the workplace. In fact, I know that progressive organizations are already quietly making those kinds of investments. I think the future is in helping employers to understand how to begin those changes so that they don't lose out on both younger and older workers.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

I noted that Mr. Cuzner dangerously extended the scope of the study. But we'll move on nonetheless.

12:15 p.m.

A voice

[Inaudible—Editor]

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Older workers.

12:15 p.m.

A voice

Over 15 is an older worker.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Over 15.

12:15 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Oh yes, that was just a for-instance.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Nonetheless, we'd like to thank you very much for indulging us today and answering the questions posed.

We are going to conclude now, and I'll suspend shortly so our next panel can come to the table.

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

We're a little pressed for time so we'll start a little earlier.

Susan Barkman and Tim Jones, can you hear me okay?

12:20 p.m.

Tim Jones President and Chief Executive Officer, Skills Connect, ThirdQuarter

Yes, we can.

12:20 p.m.

Susan Barkman Vice-President, Marketing and Communications, Skills Connect, ThirdQuarter

Yes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

At the table we have June Muir and Patricia Katona from the Unemployment Help Centre. We also have David Whitten, an employment lawyer. We'll have each of you present and then we may have time for some questions. We'll see how that goes.

We'll start with Mr. Whitten. Please go ahead.

12:20 p.m.

David Whitten Employment Lawyer, Whitten and Lublin

Thank you, Sir.

First of all, I want to thank you for inviting me here today, because in my practice I act for both employers and employees and so I see this issue from both sides of the table. I believe that navigating the transition to an older workforce will become the dominant workplace issue in Canada over at least the next couple of decades. How successful that transition is will have a direct impact on Canada's economic prosperity, as well as our social welfare system.

With that in mind, it's critical that we identify the means and manner in which we can successfully transition to an older workforce and encourage workers to work beyond age 65. In order to do that, this really has to become a national economic priority.

First, I want to point out that the transition from the status quo to a successful older workforce really does face some critical barriers. This is not going to be an easy challenge. One of those, obviously, is the pressure on employers to cut costs by laying off older workers. The other that's been identified already is age-related performance issues—how those are accommodated in a workplace—such as adapting to new technologies, lower energy levels, health and wellness issues, and special needs.

One that I find is often neglected but which I commonly see in my practice is the aspirations of younger workers: “Get out of the way. I want your job.” That will require some education and public advocacy to really bridge the gap. We also have an unparalleled mentoring opportunity here for knowledge transfer between older and younger workers that needs to be cultivated.

Younger workers, quite candidly, have to be brought onboard with the concept that people are going to be working past age 65. We have to embrace this in Canadian society so that people's expectation is that they're going to retire later and that our society and our legislation are designed to encourage that.

One thing I want to address before I get into recommendations is some statistics. I think they can often be skewed and misunderstood. One in particular that's highly relevant to this issue is the average age of retirement, which has stayed relatively static since 2004, at age 62. In my submission, there's too much emphasis put on that particular statistic because it's skewed by the age structure of our population. So I'd like to draw your attention to a few other statistics that I've found in my research preparing for today, which I thought were particularly poignant.

A 50-year-old worker in 2008 is expected to stay in the labour force for approximately three and one-half years longer than he or she would have in the mid-1990s. Retirement has been delayed. I'm referring to labour force survey data for my statistics. What this represents to me is that older workers have been consistently delaying their retirement since the 1990s. For example, in 2008, an employed 50-year-old had an expected additional 16 years of work. As I mentioned, that's roughly three and one-half years longer than they would have had in the nineties.

I think the statistic for early retirement has also been somewhat skewed by the marked trend in the late eighties and early nineties toward early retirement, prompted by high public sector deficits. Since the 1990s, though, that trend has changed significantly.

Another interesting fact is the employment rate of individuals aged 55 and over. Between 1997 and 2010 that rate went from 30.5% to 39.4% for men and it's nearly doubled for women. Again, from 1997 to 2010, 15.8% of the 55 and over crowd were in the workforce. Now it's 28.6% for women.

So these data are really at odds with the average retiring age having stayed at 62 consistently since 2004. They suggest to me, in fact, that people are extending their retirement age.

The other aspect that is relevant is the aging population and the fact that our birth rates are down significantly. There's been a long-term decline in children per woman, fluctuating around 1.5 since 2000 compared with 3.9 children per woman in the second half of the 1950s.

So the proportion of older workers has increased significantly and will continue to do so over the next quarter century. The proportion of children, young adults, and middle-aged adults will continue to decline.

How do we address this in a way that's going to make a meaningful impact?

First of all, my recommendation would be—and I believe part of that initiative has begun already in today's room—to establish a task force and conduct public, intergovernmental, and employer consultation with a view to recommending proactive changes in public policy, workplace legislation, and working conditions to make retiring at 65 the exception rather than the norm.

There should be broader consultation to convince corporate Canada, industry, professional associations, and prominent business leaders to take a proactive approach and embrace the idea of an older workforce. This will involve creating economic incentives, including tax breaks as well as grant programs, to encourage this type of thing. I'll get into more detail on that in a moment.

As well, there should be consultation with the human resource community to drive the creation of supports to meet the special needs of older workers and create workplace conditions conducive to the wellbeing of older employees.

Finally, there should be advocacy campaigns involving advertising, earned media, and grassroots advocacy to convince older workers to stay on the job.

What really needs to be done here is to instill an understanding in our population that we have a public duty to embrace the older worker and to create a situation where their knowledge will be utilized to their advantage. That leads me to what I believe to be a critical component to this strategy, and that's taking advantage of this unparalleled mentoring opportunity I mentioned earlier. How do we do this? We create incentives to business to establish formal information-sharing forums, possibly by offering grants or tax incentives for those workplaces that hit pre-established participation targets.

Establish incentives for older workers to become mentors. For example, why not give a tax break to boomers who participate in a workplace mentoring program? This is how we're going to encourage the knowledge transfer. Once that gap has been bridged, I think we'll find a lot of the workplace conflict that arises from the generation gap dissipating and becoming more of a productive interchange between the parties.

At the risk of running over my time, I would say in summary that we have to take a multidisciplinary approach to this. Ultimately, like many things in the capitalist world, we also have to recognize that economic incentives are going to drive a fundamental change in how society approaches these things.

Those are my comments.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you for those comments.

I will move to the Unemployed Help Centre with Patricia Katona and June Muir.

June Muir will present. Go ahead, please.

12:30 p.m.

June Muir Chief Executive Officer, Windsor, Unemployed Help Centre

Thank you.

Hello. My name is June Muir. I am the CEO of the Unemployed Help Centre of Windsor, Ontario. With me today is Pat Katona, the supervisor of the targeted initiative for older workers program.

I thought I'd give you a little background and history about the Unemployed Help Centre, the UHC. The UHC was established in 1977 to respond to the needs of the unemployed and under-employed in Windsor and Essex County. We offer many programs and services geared to older workers, youth, and newcomers seeking employment. We also offer social services to meet the basic needs of individuals and families through our “Keep the Heat” program, food bank, community kitchen, and a food rescue program.

We are proud recipients of the Minister's Award of Excellence and the Minister's Award of Excellence in Service Results from MTCU, and champions of the education award from the Greater Essex County District School Board.

The UHC has provided the TIOW, the targeted initiative for older workers program, since July, 2010. I thought I would give you a bit of a program description of this program.

This program provides training at no cost to teach displaced workers aged 55 to 64 who require new or enhanced skills to transition into new employment. The program provides six different certifications and two licences, if required. If you were an older worker and you lost your job, just imagine how difficult it would be to find a job when you faced multiple barriers and didn't have a centre like ours to come to and someone to coach and help you, and if you did not have on-site programs.

Why do we need this program? Windsor has the highest unemployment rate in Ontario, because of the closures surrounding the automotive industry. Of the workers displaced, 24% are aged 55 or greater and lack the skills needed to find alternative and viable employment. Most laid-off workers cannot afford to pay for retraining. Most of them are facing losing their homes and are trying to feed their families. There is no money to retrain.

Short-term training will provide the older workers with the skills and the knowledge to regain access to the current job market, at no cost to them. Our programs are short term to allow them to get out there and work again.

Without this TIOW training program, which is funded, older workers may experience devastating financial hardship, mental and physical health issues, and isolation that will have a domino effect upon their families and the community as a whole.

What are the weaknesses of older workers ? They lack the essential skills needed to pursue their chosen career path; lack the finances to register for training programs to obtain skills required for employment; lack knowledge of how to job search; lack experience to complete job interviews successfully. If you have lost your job and you are going to a job interview, you need coaching; you are not able to get through that interview successfully. They also lack self-confidence and have a feeling of hopelessness. Finally, they lack computer skills and education and face technological changes and job restrictions.

What are their needs? When they come to us, they need the UHC to continue and to expand on the target initiative for older workers training programs: to provide the older workers with the essential skills they require in order to be qualified for the job that's in demand. They need training programs that are at no cost to the older worker; training in job search skills; assistance to determine a new career path, training in interview techniques; education on labour demands; education on what essential skills they require to pursue their chosen career path; certifications, if required, for workplace-specific skills.

And they need the TIOW job developer—this is key—to secure job placement and provide them with the coaching needed to retain the job. Our job developers have relationships with our employers. They speak to the employer; the employer knows how important it is to hire a worker. This job developer helps the older workers with their self-confidence while they're on the job.

What skills have we found employers are looking for in an older worker? They want experienced, skilled workers with transferable skills related to the position; adaptable, reliable, flexible, and loyal workers who have updated skills—including certifications, licensing, and technology training—required for the job; workers with the intelligence and the confidence to plan, organize, set priorities, solve problems, and get the job done; with the experience to take leadership roles and achieve company goals; with the maturity and willingness to work as part of a team and to get along with others.

What are the employers seeing when they hire an older worker versus youth? Through the training provided by us from the TIOW program, workers have the certification, licensing, and skills needed to fill the job, transferable skills, reliability, loyalty, flexibility and proven work ethics. They have the life experience and the maturity to problem-solve, excellent customer-service skills, and emotional intelligence. With no child-care issues or maternity-leave concerns, and seeking financial stability rather than job progression, they're much more content.

What would the benefit be for us if additional training dollars came to the program? We could continue and expand our UHC/TIOW training programs and services offered to the older workers to meet current job demands. Currently, we offer three training programs from the nine promising sectors, and additional dollars would allow us to increase these programs, train more older workers who have become displaced or unemployed who need a program to turn to, provide support dollars to equip workers with the tools needed to assist them in their job search, including transportation, work attire, tools, and other areas of need.

I'm very proud to tell you about the success of our TIOW program, the targeted initiative for older workers. Since the program's inception in July 2010, we have assessed 359 candidates, who came to our centre and went through an information session, and whom we helped to decide if they wanted to start the program. We have employment counsellors who do a short intake. They're there to support and guide them, and help them make their career choice. We're happy to say that 320 started the program, with 270 successfully completing the program and 246 older workers securing employment—some 91%—from what we did to help them.

I've worked at the agency for 12 years. Our employment counsellors are very passionate about what they do. Our job developers are very dedicated. We work with these older workers and they need these programs to continue. We have many success stories that we'd love to share with you. If you'd like to visit our centre, you're always welcome.

We'd like to thank you for the opportunity today to explain our program.