Human Resources Committee on Oct. 28th, 2014

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Those are all my questions, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

I'm going to end it at this round of questions and give us some time to make the transition.

I have one question which was brought up through Mr. Armstrong's questioning and it's on the interface currently with CRA. If you've been through this process, which I have for a parent, the interface with CRA seemed to be where the disconnect was when I was administering my mother's affairs.

Can you tell us, with the way the system is currently set up, where you can see greater efficiency in terms of making sure that that improves?

[Robert Frelich]

I can't really speak for my colleagues at CRA, but I can speak from our point of view.

As I said earlier, we provide the information, a copy of the social insurance register, each week to CRA so they have the information. They will have an updated version of the social insurance registry, which will contain their most recent updates to individuals who have passed. They have that information. We have also, through the process of this bill, discovered that really that is where one of the disconnects currently exists and we are already in discussions with our colleagues at CRA to see how we can best address that.

I can't speak to what adjustments they would have to make on their end within their department, but as I said, we're already in discussions with them to try to address that, because they do have the information and we just have to make sure that it gets to the proper systems and it should be able to be updated automatically.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much for being here.

We'll take a short recess while we receive our next panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Welcome back to the final hour of our meeting today. We're continuing with our review of Bill C-247. Joining us until 1 p.m. we welcome Mr. Steve McCuaig, the national president of the Canada Employment and Immigration Union, and Mr. Jim Bishop, chair of the government relations committee at the Funeral Service Association of Canada. Welcome to our committee, gentlemen.

Each of you will have time for a presentation. Which one of you would prefer to go first?

[Steve McCuaig, National President, Canada Employment and Immigration Union]

I'll allow my colleague to go first.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Mr. Bishop, you're first and you have 10 minutes.

[Jim Bishop, Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada]

Good afternoon, and thank you all for welcoming me.

My name is Jim Bishop and as was just stated, I am the government relations chair for the Funeral Service Association of Canada, or FSAC, as it's commonly known. I'm also the owner and operator of Bishop's Funeral Home, which is a family run, independently owned funeral home in Fredericton, New Brunswick. I'm the third generation of my family to operate there. I've been working as a funeral director for 25 years now.

I'm grateful to be here today to discuss Bill C-247. I would also like to say on behalf of all of our members that our thoughts and prayers were with all of Ottawa during the events of last week and how proud we are that our democratic institution was quickly back up and running.

When this bill was first debated in June, the sponsor of the bill reached out to seek the support and the input of FSAC. We were only too pleased to join this conversation. As funeral professionals, we are often the first point of contact after the loss of a loved one and so regularly field questions about the steps required by the estate representatives to register the death of a Canadian.

Under the current system, to register a death, representatives from an estate must contact multiple offices, departments, and agencies. There is no single point of contact or form to keep this process straightforward and simple. In 2014, with all the technology we have available, Canadians deserve better. Each stop in the existing process can require different documents and use a different process. This is confusing, costly, and inefficient. What's more, the government should work to minimize the burden and stress of bureaucratic red tape while Canadians are dealing with deeply emotional and exhausting circumstances. Bill C-247 could streamline this process and reduce costs, confusion, and stress for Canadians.

In order to gather information and express our support for this common-sense piece of legislation, members of the FSAC board of directors met with a number of members of Parliament as well as policy staff in the offices of the Minister of Employment and Social Development as well as the Minister of State for Social Development. These proved to be important meetings where both FSAC and the ministry responsible for social development were able to share information and pose questions about the existing processes.

During this discovery phase, FSAC learned of the vital linkages system whereby under the Constitution matters of birth and death are within the purview of the provinces, and vital statistics agencies, or VSAs, are the authoritative source for information on births and deaths in Canada. The challenges there are that departments at the provincial level must be identified, and there are also many departments at the federal level. Also, each Canadian has a unique profile that would require the different registrations to happen at different departments. For example, Canadians need to notify Public Works and Government Services Canada, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Elections Canada, the RCMP, and Passport Canada, as has been previously stated.

In chapter 2 of the 2013 fall Auditor General's report entitled “Access to Online Services”, Canada's Auditor General examined the federal government's online services offered by federal organizations. This was spoken to by Mr. Valeriote earlier. Following the initial meetings held in June by me and a number of my fellow FSAC board members, we participated in two teleconferences with Service Canada to explore the finer details of what the proposed bill involved and to seek ways that we, as funeral directors and the government, could better serve Canadians.

Canadians experiencing the loss of a loved one don't need the added stress of trying to navigate an outdated system with multiple layers. FSAC is committed to providing quality service for clients, and this includes simplifying the death notification process. Service Canada brought forth to our attention that, while the vital linkages system exists, they are facing the challenge of receiving death data from the provinces in a timely manner. They indicate that the length of time between the date the death takes place and the date on which the registration is finalized with the province ranges from 7 to 48 days.

Throughout our work with Service Canada, it has become clear that there will likely have to be some amendments to the bill to strengthen it. For example, not all departments have access to SIN card information, changing the process by which the registration of a death to that department would have to occur. FSAC understands the need to protect the privacy of Canadians and of confidential documentation such as the social insurance number.

We are open to continuing to work with Service Canada to find ways to improve the system. FSAC represents more than 85% of all the deaths in Canada. We are more than willing to support Canadians by conveying information about this process to them. Ultimately our goal is simple. We would like to see the government provide a better road map for the death registration process, proper instructions, and a clear outline of the process.

Service Canada indicates that by updating the social insurance register in a timely fashion, Service Canada can reduce the chance of someone else using the deceased individual's social insurance number fraudulently or inadvertently, the burden of the survivors reporting the death to multiple government agencies, and the chance of overpayment of government benefits and the burden placed on survivors in correcting these problems once they've occurred.

I have a story I'd like to relate to you regarding that point. A while back in my funeral home, I was dealing with a gentleman who was looking after the estate for his wife's father. What happened in that case was we had the funeral; he took the documentation and notified the agencies he thought he should notify. He did not notify Canada pension plan, so the cheques kept going into the account, which was still open for nine months. He updated the passbook for this gentleman and saw all this money in there. He called me in a panic. There's all this money. There have been deposits going in. He didn't realize he had to let Canada pension plan know. I called Service Canada on his behalf. They were very cordial. They were very understanding. They said that this happens a lot. They acknowledged that to me. He just had to return the money to Service Canada and then everything was fine in that case.

I was shocked to learn how often this does occur.

There's something else I wanted to mention with respect to the proof of death that was mentioned earlier. With funeral homes, we issue what's called a funeral director's statement of death. It's like a death certificate from the province but it's issued by us. As funeral homes, when we're in contact with families making these arrangements the onus is on us to verify the validity of the person who claims to be the person in charge of the estate for the family. Canada pension plan accepts our statements of death as a proof of death. With that time gap that's involved with the registration being done provincially through vital statistics, to expedite the affairs for a family is probably one of the reasons I would assume that Service Canada accepts our statement of death as proof of death to finalize those arrangements.

To summarize, we believe that this bill is smart, will reduce red tape for Canadians, and will save the government money in the long term. It's also worth highlighting that this is just one of the areas that FSAC is working on to simplify the burden of end of life paperwork. Though outside the context of this bill, we have encouraged the government to allow individuals to assign their CPP death benefits should they choose to do so directly to funeral homes. Individuals often use these funds to plan and pay for the cost of a funeral, though currently they must receive the funds themselves before paying them to a funeral home. Allowing Canadians to assign the benefits directly to a funeral home would simplify the process for individuals and their families.

Again, thank you for allowing the Funeral Service Association of Canada to be a part of this process on this important piece of legislation. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you, Mr. Bishop.

We move to Mr. McCuaig for up to 10 minutes, sir.

[Steve McCuaig]

My name is Steve McCuaig. I'm the national president for the Canada Employment and Immigration Union. I represent the workers who would actually deliver this service. I'm here to speak about the practicality of that idea in the bill. CEIU certainly is pleased to see a very thoughtful bill like this one, and we hope for the success of it.

With that in mind, our workers at Service Canada right now simply can't take on a whole lot more work without there being more of an investment in Service Canada. Over the last five years, we've seen our membership decrease by roughly 5,000 employee members. The workers who are there now have as much as they can handle; they can't do more. If in fact this is going to proceed, and from the looks of it, it is a bill that has a lot of support and looks like it's going to pass, and I commend the government for doing this, just be prepared for the implementation process. Make sure there are enough resources for the employees to do the job because, as Mr. Bishop has already expressed, it's a difficult time for Canadian citizens to be dealing with government when they're talking about someone who has passed on. Whether or not it's one department or several departments, if there's still any red tape whatsoever, it's not going to have the desired effect that this bill is intended to have.

As I said earlier, we've lost a large number of members. They need to have the ability to do their job. To do that they need the numbers that are required to do it. The recent cuts in all of the federal public services were done, in my opinion, in a way that didn't really put emphasis on where those cuts should have been made. They simply gave the direction to the senior management and senior management went and cut where they felt was the easiest. Oftentimes that's at the operational levels.

Right now our members who work the call centres are unable to address all of the calls that are coming in. At one point, I believe on the EI side of our business, there were only about 30% of the calls getting through. With CPP and OAS the numbers may be better, but not by much. If someone who is in dire straits is calling and calling and can't get through, then this bill, as well intended as it is, will not have the desired effect.

My reason for being here today is to speak about the need to increase the number of people that you have doing this work. It would add an incredible amount of workload. It's going to be a very specialized workload. For those reasons, not only would you have to invest in the resources in terms of human resources, but you would also have to invest in a training program that is robust and addresses all of the needs this bill intends to cover.

As you can see, I'm not here with prepared notes. These are all things that I have in my heart and I am pleased to be able to present this information to you.

I'm ready to receive questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much, Mr. McCuaig.

We'll move to the first round of questions with Madam Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Your testimony on this issue is very interesting.

My first question is for Mr. Bishop.

You talked about the challenges with death notifications and with receiving death data in a timely manner. What do you intend to do to adjust this type of information, which I think goes beyond what the bill proposes?

[Jim Bishop]

In reference to what I was saying, what I was referring to is the time gap between vital statistics and when we have finished meeting with the families to make our arrangements. We fill out the civil portion of the registration of death with the family. That in turn is turned over to vital statistics. The gap that lies within is the fact that once we've filled out our registration information, we turn that document over to the family physician of the person who has died. The physician fills out the cause of death and signs that, and then it's turned in to vital statistics.

That gap can cause a problem in the linkage system within the provinces. They don't get to register that until they receive it from the doctor's office. Sometimes there is a delay in doctors signing these documents. In some provinces they won't release the body from the hospital until there's a signed registration, but that's not universal across the country. That issue remains in different provinces.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

My second question is for Mr. McCuaig.

As you said, tangible investments will need to be made in implementing this type of program. You talked about investments in human resources and equipment. Could you be more specific? If possible, how many people and how much equipment would it take to implement this type of unique program?

[Steve McCuaig]

I'm not the best person to do that analysis.

As the employer, it is important for the federal government to look at the impact of the program. Do you expect this service to apply to the provinces as well or just to the federal level? Will the municipalities be included, since they surely have responsibilities related to deceased persons? That is why I cannot answer your question and give you the magic formula. I can only point out that, in the past, we have seen a number of federal initiatives that were inadequate, especially ambitious initiatives like this one.

I think that, if you are going to undertake this initiative and implement it, you need to invest the necessary effort in the planning, which has often failed in the past. Take the time to carefully examine the situation, see what the tasks are and which parts you are going to bring together. Once you have that information, you will be able to determine how many employees and what types of tools you will need.

As I said before, I cannot stress training enough. There is a training gap, not only at the federal level, but also in terms of many other employers who do not invest in the resources needed for the training of employees.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Okay.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I have one last question, a very short one, for either or both of you, in relation to what the administration people said. I am referring to the links that we should create between the various services. One of the previous speakers talked about electronic links in particular. Do you know what is happening right now? How can the changes be made?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Actually, I'm going to have to ask our witnesses to hold their responses to that question for another round. We are at our time limit here.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

We move to Mr. Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

One of our representatives, from Employment and Social Development, I believe, had a statistic that 99% of all Canadians use a funeral home or funeral director for their death, which means that obviously most of the certificates that are being written up, as I believe you indicated, are already accepted by Service Canada, CPP, etc.

I quite like Mr. Valeriote's bill. I think it makes a ton of sense to move forward with this. It would seem to me that we should be trying to utilize the expertise of the individuals, the companies, and the funeral homes across the country, which are already processing this paperwork to our advantage, as Service Canada, as the Government of Canada, to make this as seamless as possible for the families of the individual who has passed away.

Do you see your members having an enhanced role in the notification to Service Canada if this bill is passed? How potentially could you see that working? Would it be something for which you could simply go online and enter the details and the certificate number and send it right in to Service Canada and let Service Canada do its bit? Do you see your members having a role in this?

[Jim Bishop]

Ultimately the goal would be to have an online system set up that way down the road. I'm not sure about the logistics of the implementation of that. I do see our role in this increasing.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

How does it happen now if you're doing it on behalf of your client when you're notifying? Are you phoning somebody? Are you sending a letter? How are you making the notification now?

[Jim Bishop]

With respect to Canada pension plan, there are forms that are online which we print up on behalf of the family. Some families will ask us to help and sometimes we will offer that help initially to help them fill those forms out and submit them. Some families prefer to do it themselves because there are certain affairs of the deceased that they don't feel we should be privy to, which is fine, but there are families that want us to help them fill this paperwork out because for a lot of people this is the first time they've had to deal with this. They're looking at us and saying, “You do this countless times for a lot of families and you have experience with it, so we'll trust you and have you help us.” I can see that becoming more and more of a role in the funeral industry because it's another service you can provide to those families beyond the other things that you're doing for them. So, yes, I see our role expanding as time goes on.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

What's the difference between the certificate that you folks issue and the actual death certificate that the province is issuing? What's the difference in those documents? Are they relatively similar looking? Across the country do different provinces do it wildly different or are they relatively the same?