Evidence of meeting #118 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-81.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:35 p.m.
Dean, Chang School, Ryerson University, As an Individual
I'm sorry, sir.
7:35 p.m.
South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.
About the notion of a no-compliance framework and the issues of a framework around that.... We've talked about the principles of progressive realization. With deadlines.... Clearly the experience is that we're not able to meet some of those deadlines. How do we put deadlines in, and then allow for compliance around that and the notion of progressive realization, which is that, as we have changes happening technologically and in terms of realization in the culture, we're able to modify and change, so we don't have to go back and do the legislation again. It can be evolving.
The minister said she wanted things to happen quickly. She said we have to start now and make that principle.... Put the stake in the ground and then build from there. How do you see that happening?
7:40 p.m.
Consultant, Steering Committee, Barrier-Free Manitoba
I'm not sure I can answer the question. Perhaps I can try to rephrase some of it.
The issue of education becomes vitally important. Our view is that most people—and the vast majority of businesses—want to do what's right. In most cases, they don't know about disabilities. It's something they're not familiar with. They don't know how to do things.
The standards provide clarity as to how rights that have already been enshrined in the charter and the human rights codes can be actively put in place. Knowing about that.... Back to the Manitoba example, there's a compliance deadline for the customer service standard, which is the first one they did in Ontario, in the educational standard. How do you provide dignified quality of service to persons with disabilities? What a great idea. It's a great starting point. Recognizing that—
I'll just finish in 30 seconds, at most.
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
7:40 p.m.
Consultant, Steering Committee, Barrier-Free Manitoba
In Manitoba, the deadline for 35,000 organizations was November 1, 2018. That's a month from now. Our province starting promoting it, awareness and tools, in September, two months ago.
7:40 p.m.
Consultant, Steering Committee, Barrier-Free Manitoba
That's not the way to build compliance.
7:40 p.m.
NDP
Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you very much.
It is true that we have recurring themes, so I'm going to try to use my time to talk about things that are a bit different and intriguing.
First, I just want to see if there's a quick comment about what my colleague mentioned: progressive realization. That's a legal term used in UN treaties for coming into effect. We can very well put timelines in and understand that they are progressive. I just wanted to clarify that, because I think sometimes the term is being used colloquially here, and we do have legal examples of how this is done in treaty language.
Having said that, what I'd like to hear, now that all of us have heard each other's comments, is more with regard to how we can be maximizing or leveraging existing regulatory frameworks. I think it was Ms. Desforges who mentioned using the Canada Standards Association. We also heard very briefly from the Public Service Alliance about components of the Employment Equity Act. I wonder if anyone else, from their experience now, can see opportunities where we should be using some clarity so that we can be leveraging existing regulatory frameworks.
7:40 p.m.
Consultant, Steering Committee, Barrier-Free Manitoba
One of the beauties of where we are in Canada now is that this is not a national development. This is an international development, so there are frameworks we can learn from. The European Union has been doing a lot of work on accessibility. I think we can pick the best and the ones that are most suitable for Canada. I think there are extensive frameworks available. Finding ones that are most applicable to Canada that are leading edge requires research, but I think we're not starting from ground zero. We're looking at building on success and challenges elsewhere.
7:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Federal Accessibility Legislation Alliance
Just to add to that, the Federal Accessibility Legislation Alliance created two sets of recommendations, one for Bill C-81 and one for the implementation of the act once it becomes law.
One of our recommendations deals with this very issue around digital and website access. There is, cited in that European Union standard around website design, something to look at. Our thinking is that there are standards that can be looked at even before CASDO is created, and if the standards are deemed to be acceptable, let's start implementing them right away. We don't necessarily need to wait. We definitely want to move on setting up a system that will monitor and manage everything, but if there are some easy and quick wins that we could undertake right away, wouldn't that be delightful?
One of our partners from Barrier-Free Canada, from the national level of that organization, works with the CRA and provided very clear recommendations on access to websites, information technology and so on.
7:45 p.m.
NDP
Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you.
I'd like to also hear a little more opinion, maybe, Ms. Beaudoin or Ms. Desforges, about whether you think it is good for us to find ways to articulate in the legislation more than just how the board is comprised—two-thirds persons with disabilities. Mr. Adair mentioned stipulating staff and other supporting roles surrounding the board.
What do you think of that?
7:45 p.m.
Records Manager, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec
We talked about it in our brief. I simply didn't have the time to mention it in my presentation.
With regard to the CASDO, the majority or at least 51% of the board of directors and executive board must be composed of persons with disabilities. We spoke earlier about more than two thirds. This will need to be determined, but there should be a majority of persons with functional limitations.
Of course, everyone also wants to contribute, but there should be protected positions for the representation of Quebec and a real commitment to ensuring that all functional limitations are represented.
As is the case this evening, there should be a principle of transparency. All meetings should be filmed and the documents should be available to the public, so that people can really get their hands on the CASDO's work and that everyone, ultimately, has access to the work.
I don't know whether this answers your question.
7:45 p.m.
Administrator, Board of Directors, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec
I want to add something.
I attended a meeting with the Canadian Transportation Agency in early October. The CSA was discussed. A number of persons with disabilities indicated that they wanted to be involved and consulted during the establishment of the new standards.
In the COPHAN's brief and in other briefs, we stated that we want to be part of committees and commissions. We spoke earlier about the majority, or 51%. However, as a board member, I much prefer the idea that two thirds of the members be persons with disabilities, in order to include them and give them the chance to participate. I think that it's important. In my view, the more persons with disabilities work and get involved as members of the board of directors, the more the right to accessibility will have credibility in projects across the country.
7:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair. My questions are to Madam Dean.
Given your experience with the Ontario government, you referenced that you did seek out or look at legislation in various countries. You referenced a number of countries. It may not be a fair question. From your recollection, how does this legislation, as it's currently drafted, compare to initiatives taken in jurisdictions that you examined?
7:45 p.m.
Dean, Chang School, Ryerson University, As an Individual
When I studied those jurisdictions, they were not as evolved as they are today. If you compare those jurisdictions today, they may actually be an improvement on this legislation.
When I was studying them, it was from their challenges. I don't want to use the word “mistakes” because they were pioneers. They were Great Britain, Australia and the United States. They told me, “Have a timeline, definitely have timelines.”
In the United States, I basically modelled what we did with the Environmental Protection Agency. The Americans were developing their standards with a long timeline, about every five years or less. We used a different area to model our legislation. Actually, this legislation, when enforced, would also include businesses, albeit only federally regulated businesses. It is an improvement on many jurisdictions around the world. Ontario is trying to enforce this for all businesses not just regulated by the provincial government, which is part of the challenge. We're trying to do more than what this bill is doing in Ontario.
It depends on which jurisdiction you're looking at, and what year you're looking at. Compared with back in 2005, this bill is ahead, but now I know some of those jurisdiction have improved.
7:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you. I want members of the panel here to comment.
The legislation takes an access approach in its legislative intent, more so than a discriminatory approach. Do you feel that's the right approach or emphasis as the bill goes forward? The focus should be primarily on providing access, would you agree?
7:50 p.m.
Dean, Chang School, Ryerson University, As an Individual
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. As opposed to...?
7:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Access—the bill will be tested on ensuring access for people with disabilities, rather than an emphasis on.... Some legislation under the charter is on rights. There's a focus on rights versus access.
7:50 p.m.
Dean, Chang School, Ryerson University, As an Individual
From my experience, focusing on access is more concrete, and therefore has implementability. We have a lot of human rights. I have one right here. I was going to cite the UN convention on human rights, yet we're so lacking internationally to follow those human rights.
