Human Resources Committee on Nov. 1st, 2018

[Jens Locher]

I have another example I would like to share. There's a process whereby about a week after delivery a public health nurse does a follow-up call with families, so some information is flowing. Someone tells the nurse that there was a birth and they're to follow up. They don't tell that nurse when the baby died. You might assume how those conversations go when these nurses go into the home not knowing that the baby has died and start by saying, “I am here to support you. Do you have any questions? How is the baby doing?” Then you say your baby died, and it goes down from there.

It's upsetting to the parents to get those calls. I have to wonder how that is possible. I don't think I've ever consented to my information being shared with this person, so why do we hear again and again that there are privacy issues in making sure that the information that my child died can be shared with this person so the nurse could be informed that they are not supposed to call and maybe instead a bereavement counsellor could call and set up some counselling with the parents.

[Kerry Diotte]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Next up we have MP Long, please, for six minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for your courage in coming here to tell us your stories. I want to thank MP Richards for bringing forward motion M-110.

I want to ask so many questions. I'll start with you, Ms. Roberts.

Thank you for your testimony. You mentioned you wanted to see a restructuring of the current system, and you had three points you wanted to go through. Could you go through those three points quickly again so we can make sure we have those clear?

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

One would be restructuring the EI benefits system.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

How would you do that if you had the power to restructure the system?

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

If I had the power, at the point that the baby dies, the doctor, physician, caregiver, midwife, someone would be able to present that information to the system itself.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

It would be almost like an automatic trigger.

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

Exactly. We fill out a form and we get our social insurance card for our baby. We get our health care card.

Could there not be another system like that where it's just here it is and then it's done? It would be a system where families are given that 12 weeks or 15 weeks, whatever we're going to decide is applicable and adequate.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Is 12 to 15 weeks adequate? The Cormier family was here a few sessions ago and proposed 12 weeks. Is that enough?

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

Grief is a journey. This is something we will live with for the rest of our lives.

I think for most families 12 to 15 weeks would give some time. Not every family is going to take the entire time given.

As Jessica mentioned, going back to work was something that was helpful for her. To be home without noise around you isn't always helpful. To have that time....

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Would you also propose flexibility in the EI system? Some people, I wouldn't say need to go back to work, but some people can heal better back in a work environment.

Could you see flexibility in the EI system?

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

I think the one thing I would ask for as a proposal is that if a family decides that they're going to go back to work, the mother, the father, the partner says, “I'm ready to go back to work,” but six months later the grief resurfaces and there's time needed to be off, that would be applicable as well.

Maybe it's 12 weeks over a period of a year and you could take a chunk here and there if you need it.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I can't certainly experience what you've gone through, but I remember when my father died, I needed to go back to work. It helped me heal. But six months after, that's when it really hit me and I really needed the time.

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

Exactly.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

What else?

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

I will tell you very quickly.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Yes, of course.

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

Two to six months is the time that it takes for the shock to wear off that a death has occurred and reality sets in.

Six months is key. It takes two to six years to incorporate a regular death experience, grief experience, into our lives. That does not include baby loss. That is just the loss of a father, the loss of a sibling.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Absolutely.

[Cheryl Salter-Roberts]

There are two things to note: two to six months and two to six years.

There's another thing I would think of in our situation. I was already at home so I didn't qualify for maternity benefits but for my partner, my husband, the father should be able to have some time for his own grief. He was fortunate to have an employer who said to take some time. But he felt pressured to go back to work because....

[Bill Roberts, Co-Founder, H.E.A.R.T.S. Baby Loss Support Program, BriarPatch Family Life Education Centre]

There was pressure to go back.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Let me just jump in.

Another witness at an earlier meeting said that the workspace is one area where bereavement is less recognized.

I'll go through the whole panel because all of us have to go back to work at some point.

Some work environments are helpful and supportive; others couldn't care less. We had an example of a guy who went back to work and he was laid off three months later because he lacked passion.

I want to start with Ms. Fuentes in Miami.

Do you have any recommendations on what could happen in a work environment?

We're a federal government. What can we do? What could a government do to create a more understanding, accepting culture in the workplace?

Ms. Fuentes and Mr. Panneton.

[Philippe Panneton]

I'll take this one.

We've given this some thought.

We have a really supportive employer. We both work for the same company. They've continued to support us whenever we've needed it over the course of the two years since our son has passed.

What I would like to see on the part of the government is that in the same way if you were on sick leave or the same way if you're on mat leave, you're guaranteed your employment. Your job will be there once you return to work. If you need to take personal time off for bereavement, whether it's paid or unpaid, we'd like to see the same guarantees put in place. That would take some of the stressors off a bereaved family or a bereaved parent.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Locher.