Human Resources Committee on Nov. 7th, 2018

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Can I ask one question to James?

Does this timeline thing fall under the paragraph 117(1)(b), where the regulations will be framed?

We are just dealing with the act here and the regulations will be framed later on. All of these questions that are now coming with these motions are to be considered under the regulations.

[James Van Raalte]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The issues around accessible format and plain language would be addressed through standards development and then regulation. I would also point out again that from an operating policy perspective, the organization itself, CASDO, can get out ahead of that and set those requirements within their own bylaws, as set out in the legislation.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Bylaws and regulations will be framed later on, when this act is already enacted.

[James Van Raalte]

That is correct.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

My next comment to you, then, is that these motions that keep coming forward with all the timelines are redundant. They are not of any value because the regulations will be coming later on.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I don't believe this is related to the current amendment that's on the floor, which doesn't have a timeline in it.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nuttall.

Mr. Sangha, we will be dealing with every amendment. If you're trying to say that we shouldn't be dealing with every amendment because in your opinion they're redundant, that's not going to happen. The amendments were submitted to the committee and the chair in a reasonable fashion. They will be addressed, every single one, as we go through the process. I hope that's clear.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Chair, I'm clear...but with all due respect, let me say it again. Regulations are made after the act is made. Regulations will be dealing with all these things that we are tackling here now.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

That's your opinion, Mr. Sangha. I appreciate that you're free to make that your question.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

Is there any further discussion on CPC-18?

Go ahead, Mr. Nuttall.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Mr. Van Raalte, maybe this seems redundant, but I'm not sure. As it stands today, would everything that's done currently out of your department, and with the standards that would then be put in place regarding the construction of any of the regulations and standards going forward, all be done in plain language? Would they be all in an accessible format?

[James Van Raalte]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Chair.

I would have to say we make best efforts. We are still learning and evolving as we go in terms of the range of accessible formats that are available.

I can give an example. When we led the consultation process across the country that served to inform the development of the legislation, at each and every stop we learned from new barriers that we had not encountered before. We made best efforts. We adapted as quickly as we could. We incorporated those changes into the next stop so that we could bring down those barriers at the next consultation process.

It is an evolving learning process for us. We make accessible formats and plain language available to the best of our ability. We often get that wrong. The disability community will reach out to us and ask if something can be adjusted, and we make those changes.

I'm not sure I'm answering fully your question, Mr. Chair.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I do appreciate the answer.

As you were saying this, it struck me why it is I'm struggling with this so much. It's because sometimes when the Liberal members are talking about how that's a regulation and this is the act, I'm starting to buy into some of the things that are being said.

It actually takes me back. If I think about acts in previous governments, the transparency act clearly delineated what the expectations were of members of the government.

I'll give you an example. If you serve as a cabinet minister, you can't lobby five years thereafter. That wasn't something that came in two years down the road when they figured out what they wanted to do. They set a clear and concise set of standards within the act itself. To sit here and say we're scared that we can't actually meet everybody's barrier-free

We're saying we don't want to set a standard on anything in case we miss somebody; the reality is that when you take that approach, you miss everybody.

I am struggling with this. I've listened. I've listened to what you've said. I've listened to what other members have said. I get it. I 100% get what you're trying to say. It's going to be constantly moving, so if we try to peg it down, we're going to miss people, as it's constantly moving. New technologies are coming forth. New ideas are coming out. Universities and colleges are doing new studies that are providing new information. I get it, 100%.

However, if we don't put the peg in somewhere—in here, and I actually do believe it's the right place—then we don't set the tone for the standards. That's a difficult thing to swallow when it comes to accessibility.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

Thank you, Mr. Nuttall.

Go ahead, Mr. Ruimy.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

With respect, that was the point of creating CASDO in the first place. Their job is to create the standards and to work through policy and the departments. That's what they're doing. It's not being left up to Parliament to create standards. You have a whole new board and a whole new framework, and their mandate is to continue to look at increasing the standards and moving the bar forward.

That's the whole point of CASDO. They're an entity on their own. That's why the board will be made up of members of that community. We've been living this for a while now.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

Mr. Sangha is next.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Chair, we are sitting here to legislate. We are legislators. As legislators we don't have to think of all of the nitty-gritty because we have to leave something for the regulations and the bylaws to play with.

Our intention is to prepare the bill in the best possible way to serve the purpose for which we are sitting here. It is not to go deep into the things that other people are required to do, but we are trying to do that now. In that way, we are not serving the purpose of the bill.

I think it would be better to legislate the main parts of this act, not to legislate the subamendments that are required and later on will require changes from time to time. Our intention is to prepare the best possible legislation so it is applicable in a nice way.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sangha.

I think all of us are here to do the best job we possibly can. I think we've heard tonight some discussions on what the framework looks like, what the baseline is, where we start. I think everybody put in about 80 amendments, so a lot of nitty-gritty things were brought by everyone. I think it's important that we have that discussion. If we want to do this right, we're going to go through them.

Is there any further discussion on CPC-18?

Go ahead, Mr. Nuttall.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I completely agree with what you just said. I think everyone wants the best piece of legislation possible. I don't think anyone sitting around the table is saying they don't want a good piece of legislation. We may disagree on what that looks like, but I think everyone wants the same thing.

I'm still struggling with plain language and accessible formatting. This is pretty basic.

There are two issues that somebody would have with this; number one, that it can't be met; and number two, that it's redundant. If it's redundant, then it's just as likely to be voted for as against. If it can't be met, then that would be a sad day.

I'm struggling with.... We're going to have many amendments coming forward to say we just want plain language. If we change the language to say that all communications going forward...that the organization be set up in plain language and in accessible format, does that do the deal? I'm trying to understand why it's a no.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

You're right that we all want to do what's right, and different philosophies are on the table here.

On our side, this is why we're creating CASDO. Their role is to create those standards, because they will always change. If we start putting things into legislation, the only time it gets changed is by Parliament having to make those changes, and that's not a very nimble way to do it.

Part of CASDO is to make sure that disabled people are at the table, helping to make those decisions. That's the whole point. If they're at the table making those decisions, then those are the things that we should let.... That's why we have CASDO. It's because we want to put this together.

Again, we all agree on accessible documents, but the proper place for it is through policy, not through legislation, because it will always change.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

Thank you.

Just as a tidbit, as something interesting, I just learned the other day that petitions can't be submitted to the House of Commons on large paper with large print. It shows you how far we have to go.

I think what we're trying to get is plain language and accessible format. I think those are important issues to talk about.

Go ahead, Mr. Sangha.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

This bill is giving certain powers to CASDO and other organizations. The bill is giving the powers, and those powers are to be used as and when they are required, so that's the way we should be at this time. Yes, we are giving powers to someone, and what is the actual intention behind this? The minister has come here, and she has said everything about how she wants this act to go and what types of timelines she's looking for. Let's leave something further for the person to whom this act is giving the powers.

[The Vice-Chair, Mr. John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sangha.

I would just say that this shouldn't be about how the minister wants the legislation to go. That's why this committee is here, and that's why we hear testimony from witnesses. They have their feedback as well. That's why this process is important.

I appreciate your input. Is there any further discussion on CPC-18?

Do we want a recorded vote?

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

No.