Human Resources Committee on March 19th, 2019

[Leah Nord]

No, not in the current construct. The advantage of the Atlantic immigration pilot project or the rural and northern pilot project—the applications have just closed—is that I need a worker and I've got a job. It's not bringing people in and having them sort of flail. That's what I would argue the benefit is. It is twofold. It's first of all the job at the local level. It's Toronto deciding for Toronto, or Hamilton deciding for Hamilton what they need. It's that more localized workforce need with a sectoral overlay, as well, within the industry, too.

[Scott Duvall]

But we're talking about skilled tradesmen—

[Leah Nord]

Yes.

[Scott Duvall]

—or tradespeople, about bringing them in and not just having a company say, “I need a body, so I'm going to use the Atlantic system”, or just, “Come on in. You don't have any skills. I just need something to lower our wage.”

[Leah Nord]

No. You're going to have to be qualified in order to do the job, right?

The advantage of this is that you can be qualified and arrive in this country, but you can be qualified and have a job that's ready-made for you in any number of constructs.

[Scott Duvall]

So you don't see any harm in that?

[Leah Nord]

It's almost like a sponsored.... We can take a look at the success of sponsored versus non-sponsored refugees in this country. À la that, you have a commitment from not only the employer, but the community as a whole. You have the integration services for the family as well, which help integrate the whole into the community for long-term sustainability.

[Scott Duvall]

Do you agree with that assessment, Mr. Lewis?

[Mark Lewis]

Yes, and I think that's one of the things I was trying to stress in terms of what we and our employer association partners would do if we could. They're not going to be universities or anything, but we would set up temporary facilities in key countries—Portugal, Ireland, Italy, wherever—to make assessments to make sure that the people that we're bringing into the pool of workers that we need are the skilled workers that we need and not just general labourers. We're a union. We're not interested in lowering the overall wage rates. We want people who can actually do our work, who we can put out to work at the full union rate, which I say is a cost for the employer of $50 an hour, plus.

[Leah Nord]

I have two points on that. If it were not only temporary, but a pathway and a long-term investment, I think there would be a greater willingness to make that investment by both...from the employer side, anyway. It's not just a two-year investment that doesn't have potential or any guarantees.

The other piece that's been discussed a lot here, too, is around competency-based assessments. That's for skills, and that's for immigration. Really moving to a model like that where you could assess beforehand, and where you can assess here if there is labour, would allow greater labour mobility and would also allow greater skill crossover and mobility as well.

It's not black and white, but as you move from one profession into another, those competency-based evaluations and assessments are key as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, everybody.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for helping us with this study.

This is the final meeting of this study, and we look forward to wrapping it up when we come back after the break week.

We will suspend briefly while we switch out the panels.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Good afternoon, everyone. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, January 31, 2019, the committee is resuming it's study of the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (B), 2018-19: votes 1b, 5b and 10b under Department of Employment and Social Development.

Appearing today, we have the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Labour.

Joining her we have, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, Graham Flack, deputy minister, Employment and Social Development Canada; Chantal Maheu, deputy minister of labour; Leslie MacLean, senior associate deputy minister of Employment and Social Development Canada and chief operating officer of Service Canada; and Jason Won, deputy chief financial officer, chief financial officer branch.

Welcome to all of you. We'll turn it over right away to Minister Hajdu.

I understand you have a very brief opening statement.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Employment]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and members of Parliament. It's great to see all of you again so soon. I want to thank you for inviting me back to this committee to talk a bit more about what we're doing to make sure that everybody has a fair chance to succeed, in terms of skills development and youth.

I would like to thank both my deputies who are here today. ESDC, of course, is a vast department in the Government of Canada and does a lot of great work, but they're here to support me as the Minister of Employment today. Both deputies and their teams have been critical in helping us deliver on our goals.

Specifically, my mandate as Minister of Employment is about supporting youth, students and Canadian workers so they have the skills, the opportunities to gain those skills, and the work experience they need to succeed in the modern workforce. This is becoming more critical, as we see a lower and lower unemployment rate as a result of the investments we've been making working over the last three years. As I travel across the country, the conversation has shifted. Employers had lots of choice in the market in terms of who they could hire and are now saying, “We need people and we need people with skills.” It has become a very critical portfolio in terms of our growth.

Some of the achievements we've made I think are making it easier for people to find their way into education and training and helping people land those good jobs once they complete that skills training. For example, changing our student financial assistance program so that more Canadians can benefit is a reflection that when everybody has a fair chance to succeed, they take that opportunity. They can reach their full potential and become valuable employees or, in some cases, business owners. They're able to contribute fully back to the economy.

Helping Canadians train or retrain to remain competitive in our workplace has a couple of aspects to it. One is for people who are wanting to return to school because they would like to improve their earning potential. It's also there for people who are struggling with unemployment and want to improve their skills so that they can transition to other sectors or opportunities.

With regard to investing in young Canadians to help them enter the workforce, we've talked a lot about the fact that students often have a great degree of skill. However, if they don't have work-related experience, it's hard for them to get that first job. Many employers will be reluctant to hire someone who doesn't have a qualified job in that sector. Our work-integrated learning programs are helping people get jobs while they're still in school, so they can land on their feet when they graduate with a great employer.

Then, of course, there is updating of the Canada Labour Code. That's something I am particularly very happy about doing. This is about protecting the most vulnerable in our workplace. It's making sure that people who aren't protected—federally regulated sectors often have higher rates of unionization— have things like a few paid leave days, so they can take care of the details of their lives, whether it's illness or caring for other people in their family. It's making sure there's more flexibility but also more predictability in terms of scheduling, advanced scheduling notice. It's ensuring that people have those protections and safety in their workplaces.

These things are all combining to make better opportunities for Canadians no matter where they sit socio-economically. That's the real goal. Whether or not people come from a family where they have the ability to support their young person to acquire skills training, it shouldn't be a barrier for people to enter education if they have financial pressures in their family.

We've made real progress. I think you can see that from the estimates. We see youth unemployment rates dropping. This is something that has been a very sticky unemployment rate. As we've seen the general population unemployment rate plummet, one of the challenges has been the youth unemployment rate. It has been very persistent. However, we're starting to see trends in terms of a lower youth unemployment rate. More people are going to school than ever before. We've created together as Canadians, with all of these investments and many more from my colleagues' portfolios, over 900,000 jobs in the Canadian economy.

Things are looking up for Canadians. I'm excited about continuing on this trajectory. I'm excited about budget 2019. I think there will be even more measures in budget 2019 that will ensure that everybody truly does get that fair chance and that we continue to be a country where we value education, opportunities, and we know that when people are given the tools to succeed, they take them. They pay back their communities and their country enormously.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Minister.

First up with questions, we have MP Barlow, please.

[John Barlow]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Minister, for coming back at our request. It's certainly much appreciated, taking the chance to answer some questions about the budget and supplementary estimates.

I want to ask about the temporary foreign worker problem, which kind of ties into the study we're doing right now. I know that's not entirely under your portfolio, but I'm sure it's something you've been aware of just because it has become such an issue in this current study that we're talking about. I know in the supplementary estimates there were an additional $35 million that were put in for worker protections under that title.

Over the last few months, I've spoken with people in the agriculture sector, and these audits have made them very anxious. Some of them take two years to complete. Are the $35 million generally just for hiring additional auditors or are there some funds that are going to be set aside for, say, a dedicated line for agricultural producers to access better information? How is this going to work? There's concern with biosecurity when these auditors come on the farm unannounced. I'm just wondering how the allocation of that $35 million is going to be set aside.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP Barlow.

I will say that the temporary foreign worker program, when I was appointed Minister of Employment and Labour, was flagged for me as one that had been incredibly mismanaged by the previous Conservative government, in fact, so badly that we had lost trust as a country in the program. Canadians were regularly outraged by the lack of protection for the temporary foreign workers we were using, whether it was in agriculture, food processing or in tourism. Also, it wasn't meeting the needs of employers either.

In fact, the Auditor General had quite a scathing review of the temporary foreign worker program. I believe this committee studied the temporary foreign worker program and made a number of fantastic recommendations about how we could move forward, restore the integrity of the program and make sure that we invest in the program so that we can actually expedite getting people here, but also, when we have people here, protect their rights as human beings. Quite frankly, I say all the time to employers, “Look, you know what we need for this program to succeed is for you to respect the program as an employer and your obligations underneath—”

[John Barlow]

Minister, can you answer the question, please? We have a limited amount of time, and I don't need your history lesson on the temporary foreign worker program. I know it very well.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, it's an important history, MP Barlow.

[John Barlow]

I'm just asking you how the funds are going to be allocated.

I've spoken to employers across the country on this. Absolutely, the temporary foreign worker program is a difficult one, but I haven't had any of them complain to me about some of the things that you're talking about. We addressed a very serious issue when we made the changes. I admit we probably went too far.

We're trying to find a situation that is going to work for everyone, employers. I'm not asking you for a history lesson on the temporary foreign worker program. I'm asking you a question on the supplementary budget, because we got in trouble last time apparently for not asking questions on the supplementary budget. Of the $35 million, is there going to be money allocated for a dedicated line for, say, agricultural producers to understand the audit system better? Yes or no? If so, I would like you to explain it.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, I would respectfully disagree with you, MP Barlow. The integrity of ensuring that, when people are here as temporary foreign workers, they're treated well and their rights are respected is actually critical to maintaining this program and the confidence of Canadians in this program. I will reiterate that, despite the fact that you don't like to hear it, because it's a really important part. I say this to employers, agricultural employers and employers all across the board. The majority of employers who—

[John Barlow]

Are you going to answer the question or not? Just say you don't know. Just say you don't know if you don't know.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The majority of employers are good employers, and they are employers who respect the obligations as temporary foreign worker employers, but the few who don't put the entire program at risk.

The money will be used in multiple ways. It will be used to support inspections. It will be used to support the work of people who are strengthening the understanding of the rights and obligations of employers of temporary foreign workers.

We are also currently undergoing an agricultural review. The “What We Heard” report has been released, and we'll be using the “What We Heard” report to make changes to ensure that employers can get the labour they need and that they also understand their obligations as employers so the integrity of the entire program remains intact for all of those employers who rely on people from other countries to pick the food we eat.

[John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Minister, for finally getting to the answer to that.

Just to your comment, every single person whom I've spoken with over the last two years has said that accessing the temporary foreign worker program has become almost unattainable and much, much worse under your leadership than anything ever before. To say that you've expedited the process of the temporary foreign worker program is absolutely false. You've made it extremely difficult to navigate, so much so that many have just given up accessing the program.

I understand that you're trying to protect those workers who come here. I think all of us would agree with that. For workers who are coming here, we want to ensure they are coming here and getting the best experience possible. That's what our employers want. That's what those new Canadians want. We want a pathway to permanent residency. We don't want people to be coming here necessarily for two years and going home.

When you say that you somehow made this miraculous change to the temporary foreign worker program, I think you're naive, maybe close to delusional, if that's really what you think. I think everybody would agree there needs to be a massive overhaul.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Your comment is not appropriate.

[John Barlow]

What's that? Sorry?