Human Resources Committee on June 6th, 2019

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thanks for clarifying those numbers; that's appreciated.

Certainly we've heard about the lack of service standards from the Auditor General and through this report, and I find surprising that the departments wouldn't have metrics to measure success. Certainly it was highlighted in the study several times that the departments and the call centres weren't customer-centric. They weren't there necessarily to the benefit of their customers. Canadian taxpayers are our customers and they should be treated as such.

I was surprised to see that ESDC is the only department that has said they're not going to comply with the Auditor General's recommendation from this report on the call centres.

Can you explain to me, Ms. MacLean, why ESDC is choosing not to comply with the recommendations in the AG's report?

[Leslie MacLean]

As an organization, we have agreed with all the Auditor General's recommendations. We are changing our practice in regard to one specific issue noted by the Auditor General, which is reporting publicly on the number of calls before we've reached our service standard. Our rationale for that is as follows. We discussed our approach to service standards with the Treasury Board Secretariat, and we would have confirmed the approach we were taking with the Auditor General. If someone hangs up five seconds into the call, those are data we can track internally, and we have extraordinary quantities of data for call centres that we track on a daily basis.

One of the things we try to focus on is the advice from the Treasury Board that the service standard should be pertinent to clients. That is why we are focusing on the service level. Are we meeting our commitment to answer 80% of the calls within 10 minutes? We have changed our approach to our data as of April 1. We are now tracking those people who hang up when we've reached our service standard of 10 minutes. We have adjusted our methodology in that regard.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Just for clarification, if they stay on the line for 10 minutes but hang up, now you'll be tracking them but not until they've reached that 10-minute point?

[Leslie MacLean]

That's exactly right, and our rationale for that is that we haven't had the opportunity to pass or fail on our service standard if someone hangs up 30 seconds in or five minutes in. Therefore, we are absolutely committed to accurate reporting.

We publish our service standards every year in our reports to Parliament for all of our programs against all of our public-facing service standards, and we will absolutely adjust in our next parliamentary report this particular data point.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Just really quickly since I know I'm out of time here, the AG's report said the lack of benchmarks was a problem, but you're saying you do have standards. Are those relatively easily accessed by the public, and will you commit to ensuring, maybe, the improvement of that side of it so that the public knows exactly what to expect?

[Leslie MacLean]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair.

I have two general comments.

All of our reports to Parliament, whether the departmental results framework or other things, include our performance against each of our service standards. If you were to pull up the parliamentary reports, you would find for the employment insurance program or the pensions program our performance against our commitment to answer 80% of the calls within 10 minutes.

Our commitment is to further improve that going forward through that change in methodology we talked about, which will capture the calls that hang on for 10 minutes. If they hang up after that, we'll include those in our numbers.

As well, Cliff has extensive work under way right now consulting Canadians on making sure that the standards are not only relevant but also actually clear to people. Does someone understand what it means when we say we'll answer his or her call 80% of the time within 10 minutes? As part of that, we're looking to make that reporting happen more frequently than the normal parliamentary cycle.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Sangha, go ahead, please.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the departmental witnesses for coming today. As previously, you have given very valuable input to the committee.

In my riding of Brampton Centre we have enough work for youth in my area. Many of the constituents express their appreciation for the government for providing better services and for bringing in changes to the services through technologically progressive methods.

If they made some changes to the call centres, better services could be provided, other than making telephone calls.

Can you please tell the committee what improvements have been made to the online services to better respond to the increasing demands of the youth?

[Leslie MacLean]

I would argue that part of providing excellent service to Canadians is making sure there's full access to the information through which you can inform yourself about what you might be eligible for.

In that regard, we've had an extensive program of work to update the content of all our information that's available online. This is particularly important when there's a policy change, as, for example, in the case of the recent change to parental benefits for employment insurance. In that case, the choice that must be made by the family or the parents in question is quite complex. Once the choice has been made, it can't be changed, so we worked really hard on making sure that information is clear, in plain language and accessible.

We've also been spending a lot of energy on making the digital services easier to use. We put out our first app—and we're excited about that—for Job Bank. Members of the committee might remember that when I was here before, I spoke about posting the Canada summer jobs on the Job Bank for the first time, so that all youth between the ages of 15 and 30 could know what jobs were available in their hometown or somewhere else.

We've also been working very hard to make it easy for those who choose to serve themselves digitally online. You noted in my opening comments, perhaps, that for employment insurance, 99% of people are applying online. That's a sign that clearly we've been able to make that accessible and easy for people.

I would also note that some of those people apply online by coming in person into an in-person office and being helped by one of our staff. That's excellent. We're always happy to do that.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Many constituents are new immigrants. They have a lack of English and they're not able to battle through the telephone system. There are other people who are vulnerable, and they want accessibility.

As you know, Bill C-81 has come. What are the improvements you are making regarding Bill C-81 to give better services to the constituents?

[Leslie MacLean]

We've been working very hard in advance of the new accessibility legislation to assess our physical infrastructure coast to coast to coast across the country. We have 317 in-person Service Canada centres and 32 stand-alone passport offices. Obviously, it's critical for us to ensure that those are fully accessible.

We've also been looking at all of the digital information and tools we provide to people to make sure we're not just meeting current standards. We're trying heard to lean in, to the extent that our old technology lets us, to be well ahead of it.

I would also note, just going back to the telephone, we have teletypewriter services, and those are fully available.

Cliff, I don't know if there's anything you would add in terms of the work we have under way on accessibility. I know you and your team have been working very hard on integrating things like an online application for the Canada pension plan and so on.

Is there anything you would like to add?

[Cliff C. Groen]

Sure. There are maybe two key elements.

With all of our online applications, we ensure that they are fully accessible. There's a testing that we have to do, and we ensure that we meet those standards.

In addition, consultation with real clients matters as well. It's one thing to set the bar about requirements, but it's also about consulting with Canadians. We've done extensive consultations on service improvements that we've introduced, such as an online application where you get feedback from different clients, including people with accessibility issues. Also, for the CPP disability program, we have a stakeholder round table with both clients and also different advocates for that community, who have provided us with really valuable feedback as well, related to how to make sure that our services are meeting their needs.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

So Canadians can feel that they are going to benefit from the accessibility act bill, which has already passed.

[Leslie MacLean]

We're going to continue to do everything in our power to keep up with the expectations of accessibility, and we look forward to the opportunity to continue to expand.

As well, we have had a focus on outreach to vulnerable populations. For example, there were questions around the take-up for the Canada child benefit, old age security, and the guaranteed income supplement. We have now completed a second round of outreach in several hundred first nations, Inuit, Métis and other northern communities, because of our effort to ensure that everyone has access to the benefits to which they're entitled.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Dusseault, please, for six minutes.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today to try to explain the poor quality of service in their department.

In the private sector, you would have been bankrupt long ago. With respect to service quality, unfortunately, government clients have only one choice. They can't choose another company, so they're captive to the services we offer them; they have no other options. It's quite different in the private sector, of course.

I also understand that there are differences between the services offered in the private sector and those offered by the government. That's your reality.

I'm trying to identify the problem and why so many calls are rejected, so they don't go to a call centre agent. You say that call centres aren't able to respond to call volume. Can you explain this lack of capacity in the system? More specifically, why are people blocked and is communication cut off when they call?

[Leslie MacLean]

Mr. Chair, I would be pleased to answer the question.

In my comments at the start of the meeting, I mentioned our two main challenges that affect our capacity to take calls, especially during peak periods. It's a key element of our challenge.

First, our technology is outdated. It did not allow us to implement many of the improvement options noted in the Auditor General's report, such as the ability to leave a message and ask to be called back. The new technology we are implementing will, frankly, offer us a range of options that we didn't have in the past. So, this is the first element.

The second element is specifically the availability of agents to respond during peak periods—I would like to stress this again. Let's take the example of the employment insurance program. We have two peak periods of work. Canada is a country with seasons. Winter gives us a lot of work for the employment insurance program. A second small peak occurs in the summer when schools close.

I mentioned the average waiting time for our call centres. To give you an idea of the magnitude of the problem, let's look at employment insurance. In peak periods, the average waiting time is about 12 minutes, but in the less busy months, it is about four minutes. When the volume increases, it's not even a matter of cutting off communication.

In summary, the number of lines was fixed and the technological options available were extremely limited. In addition, as I explained, there was also the number of agents available during peak periods.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

I would like to continue on this subject. What frustrates many people is that you have a goal of answering 80% of calls in 10 minutes, but half of the calls are blocked—even more in some cases because your department has several sectors. Of course, when you manage to talk to someone, maybe it happens within 10 minutes, but that doesn't take into account the fact that there are a lot of citizens who can't talk to anyone.

Will this aspect be corrected as well? You say that you have already migrated for the Employer Service Centre and the Canada pension plan and old age security call centres, and that the accessibility rate is 100%.

Also, do you have any figures on wait times?

[Leslie MacLean]

Yes.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

That's what I was saying to the Auditor General: it's fine if 20% of people can talk to someone and the 10-minute target has been met, but it means that 80% of people haven't been able to talk to anyone.

So, when the accessibility rate is 100%, what are the figures for wait times?

[Leslie MacLean]

I'd like to talk about the fiscal year that just ended. Obviously, it's been a few weeks since your new system has been in operation. We've been extremely happy so far.

It's a game-changer.

This completely changed access to agents.

So I'll give you the numbers. Last year, the accessibility rate for pension agents was just under 70%, or 68%. Since the implementation of the new technology, this rate has been 100%.

It remains to be seen how this will affect the waiting time. Last year, the average waiting time for pensions was 5.5 minutes. Because this is a new technology and we want to exploit it to the maximum to improve our services with our current means, we will carry out increased monitoring.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

You don't have the number of wait time minutes for the new system. The 5.5 minutes were for the old system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Very quickly, please.

[Leslie MacLean]

These 5.5 minutes were for the year in total. I haven't had any wait time data for a few weeks.

Mr. Groen has something to add.