Human Resources Committee on Oct. 27th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to cut you off.

[Stella Lord]

Yes, but please, please look into this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. Sorry about that.

We will go over to Mr. Warawa for six minutes.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I've taken a number of notes, as I've listened intently to each of the presenters, and the challenge for government is to fund all of the needs that we have heard about from different stakeholders.

I served 14 years in local government, and there was a constant flow of requests. It was a legal requirement under our municipal act that we have a balanced budget, so we had to live within our means; it was illegal not to. Whenever a group asked for a property tax exemption, then the rest of the community had to pay a little bit more.

I share that with you, to say that at the federal level, there is the same principle, but we do not have to balance our budgets. We should, I believe, but the government is taking the approach that we are borrowing from the next generation to provide services today.

Ms. Laidley, you've already answered Pierre that you didn't cost your request. Each of you presenters has provided a number of recommendations. Did you cost your requests? Is there an approximate estimate for things like senior housing, food security, income security, free post-secondary education, public transportation improvements, child care, and on and on? These are all really important things to discuss and consider, but have they been costed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Who is the question for?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

It's for all the other presenters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Which presenter would you like to go first?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

It doesn't matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Weigh in, ladies and gentlemen.

[James Hughes]

I think it's a really fair question. It's important to understand the implications of spending. I think we have to understand all of the various impacts it will have, including on government budgets and the capacity to sustain them over time.

I would use the analogy of investment as being really fair on the social side, which I don't think is actually discussed enough. We're very quick to replace a Champlain Bridge, for instance, and other physical infrastructure. Ultimately we see those as investments, because we yield benefits over time to the population. On the social side, I'd say that we haven't been very good at actually doing the health economics necessary to understand the full range of implications in all areas.

In some areas we have. You mentioned child care. In terms of child care, we know from the Quebec model that a lot of money is being spent on that every year, over $2 billion. According to one study, however—although I know there's some controversy over it—we know that in terms of the number of women in particular, single moms especially, who because of access to affordable child care will get back into the workforce, with the lowering of social assistance payments to them, as Pierre Fortin calculated, it's about kif-kif. The spending and the investment over time achieved an increase in revenue and a reduction in cost that about offset each other. That's not counting the benefits to the children going to quality day care, hopefully, in most cases, and all of the positive benefits that come out of that.

That's just one example, but I would just like to say that there are others. We need to do more of that kind of—

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I'm sorry for cutting you off, Mr. Hughes, but I have a number of speakers in a short period of time.

Perhaps we could hear from the others on whether they've costed their requests. If so, perhaps we could hear some suggestions on how we can pay for this. Can we find efficiencies, as I think Mr. Hughes alluded to?

Have you costed this, and if so, how are we going to pay for it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Ms. Ahsan, would you like to respond to that?

[Khadeeja Ahsan]

Sure.

I can briefly say that the recommendations we've made in our submissions don't necessarily speak to increasing funding in a particular area. They speak more to involving agencies that are experts. Our submission, of course, focuses on racialization of poverty in the field of homelessness, so it would mean involving agencies and consultants from the front lines, as someone termed it, who engage with people who need these services. Costing that would be a little difficult.

As well, our approach is that we would ask the federal government to work with both provincial and municipal governments to ensure that the services that are already being provided are looked at through a race lens, that those needs be assessed at a different level, based on the programs that are being offered and that we look at what other programs need to be offered.

Costing that at both a municipal level and a provincial level is a little broader. We did not have that analysis in the submissions we made, so I don't have those kinds of figures or estimations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That's actually time, but I'd like to give Ms. Lord an opportunity for a very brief response.

[Stella Lord]

Thanks for that question.

No, we haven't costed out the recommendations we want to make, but there is a lot of information out there on the costs of polity, especially for the health care system. Somebody might want to look at that. It's out there somewhere.

The other comment I'd like to make is that we're assuming here that we have a fair tax system. We don't. I think the federal government is already doing some work on that. There was a discussion on The Exchange last night on CBC about the unfair tax system and the fact that corporations are not paying their fair share.

I'd just like to talk about the Canada child benefit, which I mentioned before—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm sorry. We are way over time.

[Stella Lord]

I just want to make one point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Please do so very quickly.

[Stella Lord]

The Canada child benefit is going to result...in fact, the old national child benefit resulted in fewer single parents on income assistance. In fact, it was halved in Nova Scotia. Most of those people are now employed and contributing to the tax system, so benefit programs do not necessarily cost money. There are beneficial effects in terms of revenues. Just remember that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Monsieur Robillard is next.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

My time is limited so I would like to ask Mr. Hughes a question.

My riding of Marc-Aurèle-Fortin is in Laval, near Montreal, so I am well aware of your work as the former head of the Old Brewery Mission. I commend you on that work.

A number of witnesses to whom we asked questions about seniors living in poverty in urban areas talked about the problem of isolation. Over and above financial problems, they said the isolation of seniors is also a major problem.

Since your organization works with private and public community partners, what do you see as a solution to the isolation of the most vulnerable people?

[James Hughes]

That is an excellent question.

We are seeing an increase in the isolation of seniors, not only in Montreal, but in all urban areas. On the whole, is it primarily an urban effect, which we see everywhere? Is it because of the loss of a partner or a mental health problem? Like it or not, it is an issue we have to deal with.

The federal government has a number of interesting programs, such as the new horizons for seniors program. In my sector, I know it has a major impact. An agency like meals on wheels and other similar services are very effective. They are underfunded, however. There is certainly a major gap between the scale of the problem and the current measures to address it. There is a great deal of capacity at the local level that does not receive enough support right now, in my opinion. In the future, additional support must be provided and in various ways. I strongly encourage you to consider this aspect with a view to reducing poverty.

Thank you very much for your question.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'll share my time with my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Go ahead, Mr. Sangha.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for coming here and giving valuable information.

My question is to the South Asian Legal Clinic and Ms. Khadeeja Ahsan.

You people are doing a very good job, as we heard during your presentation. Do you provide any type of pro bono or legal aid assistance to the needy people to remove poverty? If so, how helpful is it?