Human Resources Committee on Feb. 15th, 2017

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I want to go into the basic income a bit more. When we're looking at it, we have to take into consideration the public funds: old age security, child benefit, Ontario Works, and things of that sort. We haven't discussed seniors yet, but when we're looking at seniors, we recognize that with GIS and old age security, it's that same idea of a basic annual income. Now, it's not very much, but it is that.

We have to be very cautious when we're looking at these things. I know that a lot of times people will talk about basic annual income, but when we're dealing with non-reported income, which is so much higher than many people understand, how are we going to deal with it in terms of the working poor and the taxpayer? There's a very unequal issue here.

I believe in equality. I totally believe in equality, but we have to be cautious and we have to make sure that it's not just on the taxpayers' backs. When we're dealing with old age security, we need to be looking at all of these. You're saying don't draw back, but we need to look at them all. This country will be bankrupt if we don't. I have clients who are bringing in $85,000 in child benefits in my community and still getting social housing. We have to make sure that not a single dollar of that is used on their Ontario Works programs.

What's happening is that we have a huge separation between the working poor and the people on social benefits. I think when we look at basic annual income, we have to report everything and combine those programs.

[Josh Brandon]

You know, when you talk about—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm sorry, we have to move on.

Ms. Ashton, you have three minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Great.

Mr. Brandon, go ahead and share your thoughts on that, if you like.

[Josh Brandon]

Thank you.

When you look at basic income or any social program, it's important not to look at one individual case and say, oh, you know, there's this family who's benefiting unfairly. You have to look at the bigger picture. I work with hundreds of people, low-income people, who aren't making anywhere near $80,000 a year, who critically depend on supports through social housing, and who could substantially benefit from a basic income.

The other side is that when we're talking about how we can afford that, unfortunately in Canada, through various forms of corporate welfare and through tax breaks for some of the wealthiest Canadians, we're effectively giving huge subsidies to some of the wealthiest Canadians who can afford to pay much more. That's where I would argue the bigger weight on working Canadians is coming from, rather than from the few low-income Canadians who may be misusing existing programs.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I just want to pick up on that last point, Mr. Brandon. Some of our presenters in the first panel also touched on the question of priorities and the rhetoric around “we just can't afford it”.

Where are we spending money that's not making a difference in terms of alleviating poverty, or reducing poverty, or eliminating poverty? In the spirit of us taking back recommendations, what kind of recommendation could you give to us that we could in turn give to the federal government with respect to ensuring that there is adequate funding?

You touched on fair taxation, for example. Perhaps you could phrase it in more of a recommendation format.

[Josh Brandon]

Canada is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We're lucky to be here, and we all benefit from living in this great country. We all benefit from the generosity of first nations people who welcomed Canadians from all around the world here, and if we look at how those benefits are distributed, we see that they're not distributed evenly.

We should not have poverty in Canada. There's no excuse for a country as wealthy as ours, with as much resource endowment, knowledge, and skill, to have any poverty. I would make it the high-level recommendation of this committee to listen to people who live in poverty.

Listen to those voices. Bring them to the table. Look for concrete ways to get to a point where there aren't children depending on food banks, where there isn't homelessness, and where all Canadians can afford a basic standard of living.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

To clarify, are you calling for fairer taxation and redistribution?

[Josh Brandon]

Absolutely, we need to look at our taxation system to ensure that those Canadians who can afford it are paying their fair share, and that those Canadians in need are receiving the benefits they need to afford the standard of living that Canadians should take for granted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we share that sentiment. It does not make sense that we continue to see poverty in this country, given the wealth of this country.

I'm going to take advantage of my role as chair and steal the last few minutes, if that's okay. There was one topic that did not come up. We started to go down that road a little bit.

I was on the executive of the Social Planning Council of Cambridge & North Dumfries for a number of years with executive director Linda Terry, from whom I have learned a ton. They were integral in helping to develop a plan, alongside a number of other organizations in the Waterloo region, for the influx of refugees.

With what's happening about an hour and a half to the south of us, in Emerson, Manitoba, how is that impacting your decisions moving forward? Is there a plan? Is there a safety net or an emergency protocol in place right now, in case this trend of refugees coming across the border from the United States continues?

[Josh Brandon]

What's happening is tragic. People are crossing fields of snow in -20°C weather. That should not be happening.

We need to look at the safe third country agreement, so that people are able to access help right at our borders, rather than having to cross through fields to get here. We should not be fearful of people who want to come to our country and are willing to make those kinds of sacrifices to make it to our borders. If they are making those sacrifices to get here, we should welcome them with open arms.

We need to have supports available when they get here. The existing programs in place, places like Welcome House, are finding they don't have the capacity to meet the need. We know that in Minneapolis alone, which is the nearest major centre across the border from Winnipeg, there are 23,000 people who come from one of the seven countries that are being targeted by the executive order in the United States. We don't have the capacity to deal with them. Just last weekend, there were 22 people who came across. We need more capacity here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Of the 22, are they being settled in Winnipeg? Do you know?

[Josh Brandon]

They've found temporary settlements so far. Usually, it takes a few weeks to get people settled, but if the numbers increase, we don't know if we'll be able to continue to see that settlement rate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank both of you for your time, for coming out today, and for speaking with us and contributing to this study.

This is our first stop this week. We're heading to Medicine Hat tomorrow and then on to Vancouver. As has been mentioned, we were in Saint John last week. We tried to get to Toronto, and we tried to get to Kuujjuaq. We're going to get back to Toronto. Kuujjuaq, unfortunately, I don't think is in the cards.

Thank you very much for coming out.

The meeting is adjourned.