Human Resources Committee on Feb. 21st, 2017

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, everyone, for coming here and for this valuable input you are giving.

My question is first to Mr. Gary Gladstone. You talked about vulnerable people like Rob, Jason, Mark, and Sameesh. You have been giving help to them through Reena. You have also suggested that your organization wants to have some $30 million of federal help and some $30 million of provincial help for housing needs. In your opinion, what housing-related matters should we, the federal government, prioritize within the context of the national housing strategy?

[Gary Gladstone]

I think it's important not only that funds be made available for accessible and affordable housing, but that the supports for that housing are also there. Giving those with developmental disabilities a place to live at an affordable rate is wonderful, but without appropriate supports to go with it, it will not help them in the way that it could.

What we are asking is to pilot the innovative Reena Community Residence across the province—scalable across the country—in order to serve more people better, to include them in the community, and to ensure that they have the opportunity to thrive.

We mentioned some of the people we're assisting who are now working. We're creating taxpayers. There's nothing wrong with that. They want to get out in the workforce. With the proper supports and living conditions, they are then in a position to be able to do so.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Then what specific issues should be addressed with the short-, medium-, and long-term residences?

[Gary Gladstone]

For the short term, we need to get more spaces—both accessible and affordable—up immediately with the appropriate supports. We need to ensure that those on the waiting lists.... First of all, we have to make sure they're on the waiting list. What's happening now, particularly in Ontario but I've heard in other jurisdictions as well, is that people with developmental disabilities who have housing needs aren't on the waiting list because without the supports there's no point. One ministry handles the supports on their list, but through housing...not. That is now in the process of being looking after.

The other is to continue to fund innovative programs to make sure that people are looked after in the best possible way. The Reena Community Residence is not the only solution; it's a solution.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is to Shawn Pegg. You talked about the food banks. You have given many ideas about how to increase food security across Canada. Do you have any suggestion as to a new and innovative initiative that the federal government could undertake in order to increase food security across Canada?

[Shawn Pegg]

As I said, about half of the households accessing food banks are on welfare. Of course, that's mostly a provincial responsibility. In a sense—and I'm probably pushing it a bit—provincial governments are creating poverty with the amount of benefits they provide to people who have fallen on hard times.

It's the federal government's responsibility to manage social assistance on reserve, or at least to oversee it. Federal practice has been to match, for the most part, provincial policy, which is retrograde policy that I think has been proven to be a total failure. There is definite space for innovation on reserve with regard to welfare policy. I think a lot could be changed. I think there's room for the federal government to move away from matching provincial policy.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Will you be a little specific about what that innovative process is?

[Shawn Pegg]

I think the federal government needs to look at working with band councils on what works in specific communities. The first thing you have to look at is the kind of hopelessness you are creating by asking people to live on $9,000 or $12,000 a year in an isolated community, where food costs twice as much as it does here in Ottawa. That's the first thing you need to look at, and I think you go from there.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

How can you attach this to the national poverty reduction strategy?

[Shawn Pegg]

There's no doubt. I think the national poverty reduction strategy needs to be more closely linked to the recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. There's a natural and necessary fit there.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

What are your suggestions to the committee at this time?

[Shawn Pegg]

More generally...?

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Yes, more generally.

[Shawn Pegg]

On-reserve welfare is a big one. My colleague talked about increasing the working income tax benefit over and above what's planned under the changes to the Canada pension plan.

Today no one has mentioned education and training. It's not only on reserve, where I think there's a real lack of education and training to prepare people for the well-paying jobs that exist today.

A few years ago we saw some relatively negative evaluations of existing labour market programs that are funded by the federal government. What seemed to happen was that people threw up their hands and took money away from programs that were focused on very low-skilled people and moved them into a different program. It would be nice to see attention paid to what is a very boring, complex issue that's nevertheless a $2-billion or $3-billion program out of the federal government, which used to be called labour market development agreements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now, for six minutes, we have MP Zimmer, please.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you to all the witnesses who came to Ottawa today and those who are out in TV land, in Fort St. John. Thanks, Gavin, for coming.

I want to get back to what you mentioned, Gavin, about neighbourhoods. That's the particular theme that we're on today. You mentioned certain pressures on northern neighbourhoods, and it all stems from finance. I think we heard a comment from Kevin Lee that we don't have a housing problem, we have an income problem. If that's correct, was it Kevin who said that?

[Kevin Lee]

Yes, that's the problem for many people.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes, absolutely.

Around the theme of inadequate income, I think one thing we've done as Conservatives is that we incentivized building positive neighbourhood behaviours, like the children's fitness and arts tax credits, etc. A big part of that strategy was to leave more dollars in taxpayers' pockets—that's what we were trying to do—and again to make sure that income is at a level where people can live and enjoy their neighbourhood, enjoy their community.

One thing that concerns me—and we've talked about it a few times, but maybe not enough—is the carbon tax and the effects that carbon tax is going to have on those communities and neighbourhoods where they're so tight. Every last cent is spent by the time the next paycheque arrives, rents are just being paid, and just enough food is being purchased.

We've also seen certain tax measures from the government, where they give back to Canadians too. I'll give them that, but on the one hand they give a little, and they take it all back and then some with the carbon tax. What do you think of the negative effects the carbon tax is going to have on communities and neighbourhoods?

[Gavin Still]

Is that a question for me?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes, Gavin.

[Gavin Still]

As I mentioned before, I think what we'll see with a carbon tax—what we do see—is that it's a very layered thing, much like the provincial sales tax in B.C. that we deal with. When you have taxation or any kind of levy that layers into various levels of the supply chain, I think it can only result in higher costs.

Again, that's not in defence of or against a carbon tax. I have my own opinion, of course, but I certainly would resist any kind of layered taxation like that. I would say that's why I would oppose a carbon tax in general. I can see that it would only be a layered tax and it would add cost, if I can make this clear, at every aspect of the supply chain, especially here in the north where there are a lot of transportation costs and generally a consumption of oil and gas, for sure. Certainly, again, if we look at it from the other side when you're talking about employment, which is maybe the bigger issue, these carbon taxes do affect the way businesses look at investing in infrastructure and investing in projects in the region. If those investments and projects are not done, it affects employment as well.

I think there's a double pressure that comes in from things like carbon tax. One is the economic slowdown because it creates an additional cost for the industries that feed and clothe people here. I think from the other side, it's this layered idea of just additional costs all the way through. No matter what's done to try to mitigate that, there are going to be almost exponentially layered costs through the whole supply chain.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'll get back to the arts and sports tax credits, which I referenced earlier. You're an accountant and you see this all the time. What did you see was the uptake of these particular tax credits? Again, it was to incentivize families to keep their kids in sports, keep their kids in arts programs, music programs, etc. It was trying to encourage positive neighbourhood behaviours in families. That's what we were trying to do by incentivizing through a tax break.

From your perspective as an accountant, was it utilized a lot? What's your general opinion on those two tax credits?

[Gavin Still]

Yes, I would say it was utilized basically 100% by people who had kids, often because we would ask the question because it was there. One thing I noticed was that there was a very high awareness of those tax credits being there, which is sometimes unusual, especially nowadays because there have been so many tax credits. When those were in place, people really were aware of those being there. For the most part, people voluntarily brought in receipts. Sometimes we had to remind clients that those were there.

Again, there was a very high public awareness and a very high voluntary uptake, and certainly it was 100% once we reminded people that they were there.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

With the time that I have left, Gavin, that's the positive side of it. We saw the positive effects of those tax credits.

Can you just illustrate what your thoughts are about the negative? We're starting to run into that. The tax credits are no longer offered. As a parent, father, community member—I know you're a Rotarian, etc.—what do you think the negative effects of not having those kinds of tax credits are going to have on the community and neighbourhoods that you referenced?

[Gavin Still]

I think it's going to be hard to know because I believe people saw those tax credits as a partial funding of these activities. I think for those people who can afford to do these things, they're going to do what they would always do. I have [Technical difficulty—Editor] there would be a negative effect for the people we're talking about who might be closer to the edge, so to speak. If those tax credits are not there, there will be an effect for those people in their overall budgeting because those tax credits simply did save them money.