Evidence of meeting #45 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cost.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gavin Still  MNP LLP, Fort St. John, As an Individual
Sally Guy  Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Kevin Lee  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
Shawn Pegg  Director, Policy and Research, Food Banks Canada
Sean Speer  Munk Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Gary Gladstone  Head of Stakeholder Relations, Reena

Noon

Director, Policy and Research, Food Banks Canada

Shawn Pegg

That's a very good question. I think the main problem we see in northern economies is that people are often living on extraordinarily low incomes, and the cost of living is extremely high, twice as high, or three times as high if we're just looking at food.

Trying to support the northern economy by shipping stuff up from the south, given the cost of energy, given the cost of food, is not really sustainable, and this is why we always bring it back to income. We can talk about how we respond to low income. We can talk about how we respond to poverty, but if we're not.... We don't talk, for example, about stock and flow. We talk about poverty as if it's the same people who are living in poverty year after year after year, when the reality is that hundreds of thousands of people fall into poverty each year and many others climb out of poverty each year.

I agree that we need to make people who are in poverty for long periods of time a focus. I think a lot of indigenous northern residents would fall into this category, but I think we also need to focus on preventing poverty because if you prevent people from falling into poverty, then you are going to see it drop significantly.

I'm not sure I totally answered your question, though.

Noon

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Did the funding in the last budget allocated to energy, transportation, and infrastructure in northern communities help to improve food security in the communities?

Noon

Director, Policy and Research, Food Banks Canada

Shawn Pegg

Would you be referring to nutrition north Canada?

Noon

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Yes.

Noon

Director, Policy and Research, Food Banks Canada

Shawn Pegg

I think nutrition north Canada is a small program. It's an $80-million program. It went from a $64-million to an $80-million or $90-million program. Yes, I think it does some good. We were very happy to see the improvements and the additions to the program. However, if you're really going to address food insecurity in the north, you have to look outside nutrition north Canada. Yes, it was welcome but it's a very small program.

Noon

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Guy.

You talked about social service legislation, which I found interesting. Since the committee began its study, we have regularly heard about the social determinants of health. It's an element that comes up over and over again. You talked about homelessness among seniors. In fact, you said that housing measures for seniors should be spread over a period of more than two years.

I'd like to hear your suggestions on how to tackle housing problems faced by seniors. I say seniors, but it actually concerns all those who are in a vulnerable situation.

Noon

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

Do you mind if I answer in English?

Noon

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

No, go right ahead. That's why we have interpreters.

Noon

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

Yes, it's incredibly important to continue to advocate for vulnerable people, specifically in terms of housing. I think that you're in good hands with Adam Vaughan on the committee as a champion for housing and for general support.

We've heard a lot of consensus on this panel about the problems being access to housing and income. The truth is, even with GIS and OAS combined, you still have seniors living under the poverty line, which is under $24,000.

One of our key pieces, which I didn't bring today to speak about but that we have advocated for, is a general basic income for all. This would be something that would be in addition to GIS and OAS for those seniors who are—I don't always like this term—falling between the cracks. That would lift them up to a standard of living that would enable them to live in a granny suite or infill housing, which would be, in turn, facilitated by a complex series of other types of programs that would need to be in a sort of web for people to fully take advantage of.

Does that answer your question regarding seniors?

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Yes, thank you.

We are hearing more and more about a guaranteed minimum income, and my thinking is similar to that of Quebec, where the provincial government is beginning to explore the idea.

12:05 p.m.

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

Ontario is as well.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Exactly.

I'd like to hear your point of view, as someone who represents an association of social workers.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

If you can be very brief, then go ahead.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Increasingly, we are hearing that, to tackle poverty, a multidisciplinary or multidimensional approach is needed. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

12:05 p.m.

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

That's totally great and it is why we're pitching something like a social care act, because we know that more isn't always better. More income support isn't always better. More affordable housing probably is better. However, until we better understand how the provinces are using their social service dollars and how people are accessing social assistance and welfare, we don't necessarily have a good answer about where those pieces need to be placed in basic income.

Is supporting people with disabilities to live with an income above the poverty line a good idea? Absolutely. Is getting people housing first a good idea? Absolutely. Is that the only solution? No. Until we have true accountability in terms of spending, we won't have true measurability and then we won't have truly good policy development.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

Now over to MP Robillard for six minutes, please.

February 21st, 2017 / 12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon everyone.

My questions are for Ms. Guy.

Your organization is described as one that works to ensure that all social workers have access to a broad base of information in order to enhance their practice.

Would you say that the information you rely on has been adequate thus far?

What resources do you use to build the base of information aimed at enhancing the practice of social workers?

Do you think the federal government should have a hand in improving that base of information?

12:05 p.m.

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

Thank you so much for that question.

It would completely tie in with our desire for a social care act or for better data to explain to our provincial counterparts, because we're comprised of provincial and territorial partner organizations, what a bird's eye view of Canada looks like in terms of social services.

You have identified two aspects of our mandate that we don't always see as being one and the same. One is to provide services and information for social workers, which we see as part of our mandate of strengthening the profession. For that, we usually do continuing education and we're really looking at a more practice-oriented focus.

Your question does a good job of elucidating how that can be hand-in-hand with needing better data collection, on behalf of the provinces and given to the federal government, so that we can start to paint a picture for people in direct practice on the front line.

This is what's happening in British Columbia, and they're doing a great job. I'd love to share that with you in Alberta, but we don't actually have a mechanism for doing that right now, knowing that federal investments aren't being tracked the way we think they should be.

Does that answer your question?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Yes.

Your association represents members of the social work profession in Canada at the national level, as well as internationally.

Have you compared the poverty reduction efforts of other federal governments with those of the Canadian government? If so, what lessons have emerged? Are those lessons based on evidence?

12:10 p.m.

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

We're active with IFSW, which is the International Federation of Social Workers, which is what you're referring to. Our president meets yearly, actually, three times yearly, but once in person with them. The major thing that came out of the last meeting in terms of poverty reduction were...and this is where some of our social care act has come from, in terms of the fact that Britain has one and it's been doing great things in terms of reporting and data collection.

The other thing was that there was actually a motion passed, I believe, last year, on basic income. It's on the merits of exploring a guaranteed annual income, knowing that when you support people comprehensively, you actually save money down the line.

In terms of the données probantes, I would have to get you a briefing note on it. I'm not the person who is delegated to the IFSW, but I do know there has been a lot of excitement and discussion around both the idea of a social care act, or a policy framework for the delivery of federal social service dollars, as well as this concept of basic income that I think is moving all over Canada.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

From your experience in the field, can you tell us the very first need that a national poverty reduction strategy should seek to fulfill?

What course of action should the federal government take to address that top priority?

In the same vein, Mr. Luppens, of Groupe actions solutions pauvreté, told the committee last week that it was more important to tackle the structural causes of poverty than to address the consequences. Would you agree with that?

12:10 p.m.

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

That's a very difficult question to answer in the sense that sometimes I am a little bit jealous that I'm not up here as a housing association or as an association representing persons with disabilities. I am representing the Canadian Association of Social Workers, and it's a very diverse field of practice with a very diverse politics among our members.

A poverty reduction strategy that is comprehensively addressing all the areas that your committee has identified is going to be the first thing. If I had to delineate a few really key important pieces, it would be affordable housing, a housing first strategy that did not push to the wayside other supports.

It would be a housing first strategy that included existing supports in the community. Affordable child care is so important. For the people whose supports aren't able to lift them above the poverty line, they would have a basic income to fill in the cracks. That would be my three-pronged approach to what needs to be an incredibly multi-faceted approach.

I'm very happy to see that the poverty reduction strategy announced two weeks ago is going to be engaging people with lived experience. I also think that's incredibly important.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you very much.

12:10 p.m.

Director of Policy and Strategy, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Sally Guy

Thank you, Mr. Robillard.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Mr. Sangha.