Human Resources Committee on April 4th, 2017

[Roch Lafrance]

In Quebec, this does not concern employment; we want to know whether the worker is exposed to a risk, if there is a danger to her pregnancy or to her unborn child. There are no questions asked, she is withdrawn from her position, assigned to other duties, and if not she is paid by the commission.

I want to point out one important thing. All of the Quebec employers pay a contribution for all of their employees, women or men. Certain employers agree to assign the worker to another position, a less well-paid position. In that case, the worker is entitled to the same salary. Otherwise she would incur a loss. The employer is reimbursed for the additional cost. There is also an incentive there for the employer and the program provides for that.

If an employer has to pay $10,000, for instance, because a worker changes positions, he is reimbursed by the system.

Earlier, Ms. Cherry said that this was an expensive system. Everything is relative. I'll give you some figures. In Quebec, the preventive withdrawal program costs 0.2% of payroll. If you look at the employment insurance figures, it seems to me—because we do not have the same rates in Quebec—that it costs 3.9% in Canada. So these are not excessive costs, and the more employers agree to reassign their pregnant workers, the less they will be.

A reassigned worker does not cost very much. Either she will have the same salary, and so the reassignment will cost nothing, or there will be a salary difference, and all employers pay for the costs of the employer who agrees to reassign a worker. These are important points; the worker must not be penalized. If her salary is reduced, she will also be penalized with regard to her employment insurance benefits later. It is important that there not be a penalty.

You referred to the European systems. In France, Belgium, Switzerland and Germany, the systems are comparable to the one in Quebec. The first thing they attempt to do is to keep the worker on the job, to correct the situation and remove the risks. She must not incur a loss nor lose future advantages. Integrating that into an employment insurance system at this time is a problem.

We are talking about 15 weeks currently. Suppose that period were extended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

[Roch Lafrance]

If the worker takes her preventive withdrawal leave earlier, she will have no more parental benefits or standard benefits at the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

You were on a bit of a roll there. I didn't want to cut you off but....

We'll go over to MP Warawa for five minutes, please.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

Dr. Cherry, Mr. Tadic mentioned the declining birth rate in Canada. Are you aware of any statistics regarding the birth rate in Quebec as opposed to nationally? Is it similar, because Quebec has a program to help women? Is it a similar birth rate decline in Quebec or is it different?

[Dr. Nicola Cherry]

I don't have those figures. Certainly when I lived in Quebec the birth rate was declining rapidly. I don't know if it's been reversed by this or not. I would be surprised if this program had an important effect on the birth rate.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

You've emphasized the importance of making the workplace safe and that strenuous, physical, demanding work increases the risk of miscarriage. We've highlighted welding and electrical in your expertise and research, but I'm assuming that any job in the workplace that is strenuous and physically demanding could risk a miscarriage. Is that correct?

[Dr. Nicola Cherry]

That's correct. There seems to be more risk in manufacturing than other jobs, but it is correct. Indeed, again in Quebec, a lot of nurses, for example, would be covered by the ergonomic demands of jobs and get reassigned because of the ergonomic demands.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

We have five children so I've seen many pregnancies—a long time ago—but each pregnancy was quite different. We're assuming that the challenges and the risk of miscarriage can also vary based on what that pregnancy is like. Is that a correct assumption?

[Dr. Nicola Cherry]

That's true. It can vary on the pregnancy itself. It can vary on the woman's history of previous miscarriages, for example.

I haven't said, but perhaps you'll allow me to now, that it's important also, if we are talking about preventive reassignment, that the woman's choice comes in. The employer shouldn't be allowed to insist that she take a reassignment. It is for the woman herself to make that decision, in discussion with her doctor, obviously.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

I have a question for Alicia Ibbitson, in Chilliwack. You've now been a mother for four months. How demanding is this job? Having watched my wife, and she and I work fairly hard around here, I've never worked as hard as she does. As far as a career choice goes, would you agree that this is probably one of the most demanding careers that you've ever experienced, being a new mom?

[Alicia Ibbitson]

Absolutely. I saw myself yawning on the screen for a second and thought, “Oh no, I was up four times last night. I hope they don't notice.” I was on call on my previous job, the job that I intend to go back to at the hospital, and it was a very demanding job as well. This is much more difficult in many ways and also very rewarding. I am grateful to have the time off to take care of my child here at home.

I have taken advantage of the 40%. I do work in addition to my maternity leave. I think that is a wonderful program. I am lucky that I am at the maximum amount of maternity leave. I am able to make $800 a month and not be penalized. However, if I were on what the average would be, which is about a $1,100 or $1,000 benefit, then I would only be able to make $300 to $400 a month in addition without being penalized.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

During the pregnancy, what are some of the costs that women may experience that they may need some help with? We heard that in the last few months of pregnancy it can be quite uncomfortable. I've heard of women needing help through physiotherapy or massage therapy or whatever, and they may or may not have coverage for that.

If we were developing a national maternity assistance program, should there be some consideration to help women who choose to go full term with a pregnancy, have a child, to help with the birth rate decline in Canada? How could the government assist in covering some of the costs, be it a new crib or car seat or physiotherapy or whatever? Could you comment on the costs associated with the pregnancy?

[Alicia Ibbitson]

Yes. It's not only loan expenses for the child that are upcoming—you have to purchase the car seat and all that before you have your child—but there are others. I had to have physiotherapy in my late pregnancy because I had had a previous late miscarriage that was traumatic.

I know women who have varicose veins that can be extremely painful, and they have to buy expensive nylons. There are also medications, so any help comparable to what you would have as work benefits—some people don't have health benefits from their work, so that may be a limiting factor for women—would be of huge help with medical expenses during the late months of pregnancy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

You have three minutes, Madam Sansoucy.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are talking about 0.2% of payroll for women to have access to 90% of their salary. I will remember that.

Mr. Lafrance, as you said in your presentation and you demonstrated this well, the management of the employment insurance plan does not have the specific expertise needed to administer a preventive withdrawal program.

Do other provinces have organizations equivalent to our CNESST?

If we are headed into a Canada-wide consultation, I'm trying to determine what other provinces are going to have to say on the whole issue of managing this on the basis of the current system.

Could you give us more details on that?

[Roch Lafrance]

I will start with Quebec. As I was saying earlier, the public health physician assesses the risk. He determines whether or not there is a danger. That is the system in Quebec. You have to understand that physicians from the commission that compensates injured workers are not the ones who assess the risk, but physicians from the public health care system do that.

I don't know how things work in all of the other provinces, but clearly there are public health physicians throughout Canada. In Ontario, this now falls under the Department of Labour, whereas in Quebec, it is under the CNESST. There are various levels, but in all of the provinces, there are physicians who specialize in workplace health, whether they fall under the Department of Labour, the Department of Health or other more specialized entities.

We say that the current employment insurance system does not have the necessary resources, but the fact remains that all of these resources are to be found in the provinces.

How will the employment insurance officer determine if the certificate is valid and if it is proper from the medical perspective?

A physician absolutely has to determine that. However, physicians do not fall under federal jurisdiction, but provincial jurisdiction. They are in the regions, the hospitals, the community health care clinics or, in Quebec, in the local community service centres. In order to determine the impact a situation may have on a pregnancy, you have to call on a physician. However, at this time at the federal level, the department does not have that expertise.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Since Quebec has its own systems and programs, I would like to know what impact the proposed changes to the Employment Insurance Act will have on them.

[Roch Lafrance]

The maternity leave and parental benefit programs in Quebec would not be affected. Quebec has a specific program for that. All of the programs are appreciated by some and not by others. I must say that Quebeckers are as a whole very proud of that program. Even the employers do not question it. However, the problem is that the employers who contribute to it say that they would prefer not to.

Since the end of the 2000s, they have asked that this program be integrated into the employment insurance system. When we read these provisions, we see clearly that these are the same criteria as for preventive withdrawal, and this raises concerns for us. Indeed, as soon as this is passed, all of Quebec's employers will say that the program is no longer needed and will ask that it be transferred to the federal level. We understand, because we are discussing it today, that this is a completely different system. In Quebec, it does not involve only the last 15 weeks.

It could have repercussions, so it's important to keep that in mind. Improving the lives of pregnant workers in Canada should not come at the expense of the only preventive withdrawal regime currently in place in the country. In other words, let's not destroy Quebec's regime in order to make things a bit better in the rest of the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Let's go over to Pierre Poilievre, please.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

My question is also in line with the goal of having more women in the trades.

When I was in Lévis two years ago, I visited a manufacturing plant where a refugee from Haiti—she was a single mother of three kids—was earning over $100,000 as a welder. That's an incredible Canadian success story. She's very young so she'll be a contributing member of the economy for 40 years. Her kids will have a good, prosperous upbringing, and the company for which she works was able to fill a vacancy, which they desperately needed to do. They were desperate to have more welders. This is exactly the kind of story we want to hear more of.

However, we know that women continue to be under-represented in the skilled trades. Obviously, Bill C-243 attempts to address one of the barriers that may be standing in the way. Can you list other similar barriers government may be putting in the way that we as a committee can work to remove?

[Dan Tadic]

I don't know of specific barriers that could be removed.

I mentioned earlier that when it comes to the reassignment of work, I think it would be helpful if there were a supplement available to tradespeople whereby they could get some additional funding, so that if they take a job that is at lower pay there would be some funding and financial support to supplement their income so they could stay on the job longer.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Why would it be of lower pay?

[Dan Tadic]

For example, if you're a welder in a company, you are paid, let's say, $20 to $30 per hour, but if you're doing some other work that is less strenuous, less demanding, the labour pool is larger for that position and it's of lower pay.

That welder could take a job that's available within the company—it could be some clerical work, as an example—that may be of lower pay.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Do you mean during a pregnancy?