Human Resources Committee on March 12th, 2020

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you. Following up on MP Turnbull's note that we might want some data and other things, it might be helpful for us to launch the study with the people who run the programs so we can ask them for an overview. That might be a good way for us to then start with some of the programs. We could clearly ask questions. MP Vaughan might want to say “Why this, not that?” It would be part of the committee record, and we'll all be able to ask questions. It might be a good way for all of us to get a little more up to speed on exactly some of the challenges and shortcomings of current programming.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'll go back to the topic of the elders. Then I want to make a comment about interesting funding models. By having an elder here—from first nations, Inuit, and Métis, because they're very different—people would feel more represented at the same ceremony. It might be something we want to look at.

The other thing is that when we're looking at interesting financing, and Mr. Albas brought this up.... I know in Winnipeg there's a lot of urban reserve development, and part of the urban reserve development they're looking at is housing in urban areas. That's something we might want to look at. It's being looked at on the Prairies, and it's something that overlaps in B.C. as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay. Thanks everyone for that guidance. I think we're ready to move on. I don't see any other interventions. If we can speak briefly about—

Yes, Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Just going back to it, though, I made a suggestion that perhaps we should have agencies that have skin in the game or could play a role in the development of this study. It would not be fair to say that we would have to bring them forward as witnesses and then not be able to have people, for example, from my riding come out instead. If we broadly agree, as MP Turnbull said, that we should have some background to start us off, to me that would be the logical start. I'll just start by saying that CMHC would be a natural one for me.

Are there any other government officials or government agencies that people would like to see?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Vaughan.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

There are three very specific programs, one of which is housed at CMHC. Another one is a fund that is managed by an indigenous board of directors under CMHC's guidance, which was set up under the Harper government. There's a third one within Indigenous Services. There are additional supports around youth, seniors and people coming in and out of custody. There are also provisional housing programs, but those ones are largely within the health ministry.

I would suggest that CMHC is the most important and that Minister Miller's department have staff come forward. Those are the two major programs. Then we can probably also pull in, from CMHC, the reaching home program, which deals specifically with indigenous homelessness, a stream under CMHC that is managed by local community entities, some of which I assume will end up appearing on the list. So we should get CMHC and Minister Miller's department.

I would also suggest Stats Canada. One of the things that the report referenced by my colleague doesn't have is good data. When it says 87%, it divides who is on and off reserve, but there is also the actual calculation of who is off reserve and who self-identifies as indigenous but may not be identified within Stats Canada. Getting a handle on that number is going to be critically important as we try to scale a response. If this study can give us an agreed-to number, it will help all of us that much more to provide the funding that's needed to support this program, so I would add Stats Canada, to come in to talk about the demographic situation. We also need to know the difference between elders and youth and that sort of information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.

I'm advised that the analysts with the Library of Parliament can certainly pull together the data for us, but if we want someone from StatsCan, someone from CMHC and someone from Indigenous Services to lay out the background at the front, if that's the will of the committee, perhaps we can start with one hour of departmental officials, and then the meeting on the drafting instructions would be the second hour of meeting number seven.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Evelyn Lukyniuk]

Is that a motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

It's not yet in the form of a motion.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

The first meeting could include the elders, to give a blessing to begin, departmental officials, with the names and departments to be supplied as part of the submission of March 20, and specifically CMHC program leads on the indigenous housing programs at CMHC, as well as people from Minister Miller's department. His department may have a demographic component to it. I don't know; I've never asked. That may be the way to get it. It may also be in Minister Bennett's's department. How do they calculate the 87% and the population numbers? There's a bit of a moving target, from my understanding, in terms of getting good data on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Are there any thoughts on that? Do we need to put it in the form of a motion? Can we proceed by consensus on the suggestion by Mr. Vaughan that we lead with the departmental and CMHC witnesses immediately after the blessing, as outlined by Mr. Albas? Is there any further discussion on that?

[An hon. member]

Consensus is fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay, I think we have consensus. We could also include the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations, which has provided housing funding for the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation.

Mr. Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

How about Dan Vandal from Northern Affairs, his department?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay.

In terms of future business....

Before I get to that, I will go to Madame Chabot.

Ms. Chabot, you submitted a notice of motion. Do you want to introduce it now?

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You may do so officially.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

So here is the motion I am making; you received it with the proper notice.

Let me explain the background. You know that there is a pilot project for seasonal workers. The pilot project comes to an end in May 2020. The Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion has the mandate to improve that pilot project with a permanent program that provides seasonal workers with consistent and reliable benefits. In that context, my motion asks the committee to suggest improvements to the pilot project.

Here is the text of my motion:That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee undertake a study on ways to improve the current pilot project for seasonal workers, which ends in May, and that this study include at least two meetings to hear from witnesses.

As I was saying, the pilot project comes to an end in May. This motion therefore allows our committee, the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, to address matters that affect employment and labour, pursuant to our mandate.

Furthermore, I specify "at least two meetings", but we could keep it to two meetings only. The important thing is to make sure that we hear testimony from people, from groups, and from seasonal workers who have experience with the pilot project. We know that it is going to become permanent, but we have to know which improvements are possible. It could be helpful for the Minister to have that testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

The motion is in order.

Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'm inclined to support the motion. I hope all members would.

I would like to move either a friendly amendment or a formal amendment, however you think it would be best to move this.

Before doing that, Mr. chair, I will share a little rationale because I want to give context to show that I'm not trying to take the committee in a completely different direction. I do support the work that my friend from Quebec here is trying to do for her constituents.

It has been related to me that temporary foreign workers—particularly under the seasonal agricultural worker program—pay not just taxes, but payroll taxes, particularly to the Canada pension plan as well as old age security payments like any other Canadian worker. I think that's probably to make sure there's an even playing field.

The problem is that when they return to Mexico, they can apply to receive some of their taxes back, but they cannot apply to get back their Canada pension or their old age security.

I'm not suggesting that we need to do an intensive study of this. I would simply suggest that we maybe amend the motion to tag this on after “which ends in May” and before “and”, so that it would say “which ends in May, as well as to question officials who are knowledgeable of payments made by temporary foreign workers, and that this study include at least two meetings to hear from witnesses.”

The reason, Mr. Chair, is that I do think we need to have an explanation as to why they pay into our Canada pension plan and old age security—mainly the Canada pension plan—when there's no expectation that they will ever be able to pull that money out.

I think many people would simply suggest that it seems wrong and unfair that someone's efforts end up paying for someone else's benefit down the road, noting that the temporary foreign worker program—particularly the seasonal agriculture worker program—is not an immigration program. It is a work program.

I would ask members that if they can squeak that in or perhaps you can just ask that officials will come. I want to be able to ask a few questions and see why this program is set up like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We'll take that as an amendment to the motion.

We have Mr. Vaughan and then Madam Chabot on the amendment.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I think that…

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I have no—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Oh, it's Mr. Vaughan.