Human Resources Committee on April 24th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We'll go over to you, Mr. Dong.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Good morning, or good afternoon, to my colleagues on the committee.

I want to thank the staff for today's call and for answering some questions.

I have a question about international students. We all know the contribution that they are making to our economy and our institutions—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Dong. Ms. Kusie has her hand up.

Is that on a point of order, Ms. Kusie?

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes, it is, Chair.

I just wanted to ensure that Ms. Dancho was getting the responses she needed. I appreciated the parliamentary secretary jumping in to address that. That's all.

Thank you very much, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

It's back to you, Mr. Dong.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

We know the contribution that international students are making to our economy and our institutions. In my riding, at Seneca College 200 students have stepped forward to join the front-line health workers. The majority of them are international students.

I want to applaud the government for their decision exempting international students from border closure and for including them in the CERB, but in the recent announcement about the CESB, I noticed they were the only group not included. I would like some explanation with regard to the inconsistency of this policy-making.

My follow-up question is to ask whether the government or the ministry is considering doing something to support international students who have been affected by COVID-19.

Thank you.

[Benoît Robidoux]

You're right that international students in Canada are eligible for the CERB and that they will not be eligible, as of now, based on the design, for the Canada emergency student benefit. I have to say that there are other differences between the two benefits. For example, Canadians abroad will not be eligible for the CERB, but Canadian students studying abroad will be eligible for the Canada emergency student benefit. There is that kind of misalignment between the two. Again, the intent here was to cover all Canadian students, including those abroad, but the decision that was taken was to not cover international students studying in Canada. If other countries did the same as us, then obviously they would be covered indirectly.

As you mentioned, the government has allowed them to work more than 20 hours in the essential services sector, which is a plus for them for sure, but you're right about the fact that they are not, at this point, eligible for the benefit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Dong.

Ms. Chabot now has the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Good afternoon.

Mr. Flack, I must tell you that what happened in Nova Scotia has saddened us at all. We express our solidarity with you.

I would like to go back to the statistics you gave us about the CERB. It can already be said that 7.1 million applications have been submitted since the start of the current crisis, which was not very long ago. We feel that the number of workers affected by the crisis may well increase and reach one third of all workers.

Since the CERB was established and made more flexible because a number of workers were affected by the crisis, we have succeeded in reaching a good number of those workers, including those who had no access to employment insurance. That is positive. However, these benefits last only for so long and will come to an end.

Employment insurance benefits, both regular and special, have been blended with the CERB for 16 weeks. There will be another one afterwards.

Since we can already predict that the current situation will not be fully resolved quickly and that people will be losing their jobs for good, it is important to ask some questions immediately. What do you see in the future? Even before the crisis, the entire employment insurance program needed to be reviewed, something that had not been done for years. Do you see yourself looking at the issue seriously? We know how precious a protection plan is in circumstances like these. However, the plan should have been broader. The CERB is already pointing out the weaknesses in the system.

I would like to ask another question. Ms. Young talked about maternity leave. Are you looking at that issue? We are pleased that the CERB has been made more flexible for seasonal workers, given that their return to work will be delayed, if it happens at all. However, people working in some sectors are wondering what will happen if there is no return to work in the fall. They are wondering about the number of weeks they will need to be eligible for employment insurance.

[Graham Flack]

Thank you for your questions. If I may, I will answer the second question first.

It is true that we have made changes to allow access to the CERB not only for seasonal workers, but also for all those receiving employment insurance benefits who have not received benefits since December 29, or will no longer be receiving them in the coming weeks, as you mentioned.

It is also true that there is uncertainty about the next phase for those who would normally have accumulated weeks of work during the summer but who will not be able to do so because there is no work. The government is presently considering what it is going to do about that.

To answer your first question, we are working on three phases at the same time. The first is to manage the crisis. Employment insurance applications are flooding in. For days on end, we have seen the volume of applications exceed 30 times the daily normal. Let me give you the latest figures so that you can understand the scope of the situation. On some days, we have received more than 200,000 applications for employment insurance. Yesterday, there were 26,000. That is still a high number, but, in the last week, it has slowed down a lot. That sign may interest you. In a word, the first phase was to provide everyone with equal benefits at the same time as we were processing a volume of applications that is unprecedented in the history of our programs in Canada.

As for the second phase, of course, we are hoping that reopening the economy will allow people to return to work, but some may well have lost their eligibility for employment insurance. So we then have to find ways of putting those people back into the system. It is not an easy task, especially since we may well have millions to include in the employment insurance system. Work is being done in that regard.

The third phase is being done in parallel. This is to consider changes in our approach when the time comes to help people in difficulty. We are working on that as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Flack and Ms. Chabot.

Now we have Ms. Kwan, for six minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

To all the officials, thank you for your work and for being here today.

From my perspective, the CERB program remains complicated, as are the other programs, for that matter. We have to go through a process of determining whether a person is qualified. If the government had adopted what the NDP proposed, a universal direct payment, we wouldn't actually be in the situation where a whole bunch of people are left out and stuck.

To that end, I would like to ask the following question.

I have a number of constituents in different sets of scenarios. One constituent had to leave work voluntarily, or actually quit, because of experiencing harassment. As a result of quitting, the individual does not qualify for CERB. In another situation, another constituent had to quit work because of having flu-like symptoms. He was never tested for COVID, but he had flu-like symptoms. He was worried his employer would not give him sick leave, and he had no choice but to leave work because he was worried that he would potentially infect others.

I have endless situations such as that, and everybody who is caught up in that situation is worried that if they apply for CERB, somehow they might be penalized down the road, because under the government's requirements you cannot apply for CERB and be eligible if you have quit your job.

To the officials, on this question, is the government working to fix this issue so that people can in fact, under those circumstances, still apply and be qualified without penalty?

[Graham Flack]

You are right. There is a condition in the CERB that parallels the employment insurance system such that individuals can't quit their jobs without cause and receive the benefit. This isn't a change. This is a continuation of the normal practice we have in place.

Under the EI system, we do have a redress mechanism, because there could be cases where an individual quit because the individual was facing harassment. You gave some examples. Under the redress system, we will allow the EI claim if the individual quit for justifiable reasons. Thus, for people applying through the EI system for CERB, we have a redress mechanism that we can use to assess the types of cases you're talking about in terms of whether it would be permitted.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

You know the problem, though, with that. In fact, in the case of the person facing harassment, they are in the system being assessed. In the meantime, there is no income and they are desperate. They're in a desperate situation to get support, so yes, there is a redress process, which takes time, so people are still caught out.

I have another constituent scenario on the issue of maternity leave. She was 23 weeks pregnant, with 17 weeks before she would go on maternity leave. After waiting for weeks for her EI application, she called the EI agent and was told she would receive half the $2,000 CERB amount. When she questioned this, the agent said, and I quote, “No mistake, you are pregnant.” She was then told there was a clause in CERB stating that if you receive maternity benefits, you are not eligible and would be put on regular EI. Then at the time that she called and made the application, she would not be receiving EI for another 12 weeks. Therefore, this individual is out of work right now, without support.

We have all these kinds of problems within the system. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only MP who has received these examples and heard about these challenges and been asked to provide answers, which we cannot.

I don't know what the government is doing to fix these kinds of issues for people who are in dire situations right now, who need assistance and cannot get it.

[Graham Flack]

As I indicated in response to an earlier question, if an individual has not received enough hours to qualify for maternity leave, those special benefits—maternity leave, compassionate care leave and other care leave—continue under the current EI system, although the government has indicated that it's looking at what it could do to change that.

In terms of the specific cases you've raised, we're happy to look into them. We've heard about cases similar to that. We're working on workarounds within the system to allow us to expeditiously process those cases for the individuals who are caught between the two systems. We have redeployed 3,000 additional processing agents towards these efforts. They had put all their efforts into getting new people into claim at the front end and are now working hard to get to these other cases that you're talking about.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

For the purposes of MP offices—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Excuse me, Ms. Kwan. Mr. Vis has a point of order. You will have another minute when he's done.

Mr. Vis, please.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] who have lost their jobs. This is my digital way of showing support for MP Kwan and the questions she's raising for the expectant mothers who have been contacting my office at large, who are falling between the cracks.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Kwan, you have another minute.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

On this issue, is there a contact number that could be provided to the committee chair so we could all receive it? We have the general numbers for MPs to call, but I have to tell you, for my office, for my staff phoning that number, it's like winning the lottery to get a call through in a timely fashion.

I want to move on to another area, the Canada emergency student benefit. Will the CESB be excluded from income threshold calculations for the RAP or the RAP-PD, the repayment assistance plan or the repayment assistance plan for borrowers with a permanent disability?

Likewise the government announced it would double the grant assistance for the coming 2020-21 year. Will CESB or CERB be excluded from the income calculation for grant assistance?

[Graham Flack]

Benoît.

[Benoît Robidoux]

Yes, they will.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On the question of people who are engaged in an immigration process, often the issue is tied to their income. If they receive the CESB, will they be penalized for the immigration process, or would that be exempt?

[Benoît Robidoux]

I'm not in a position to answer your question on the immigration process because it's not in my zone of responsibility or the department's. I think you have to redirect this question to the immigration department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Robidoux.

Thank you, colleagues.

We are expecting Minister Qualtrough in eight minutes. I would suggest that we suspend to allow her to get situated, and we'll be back to you shortly with the minister. Thanks, everyone.