Human Resources Committee on Dec. 10th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 11 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will show only the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

As all of the members of Parliament and all of the witnesses have heard the spiel before, I'll keep it mercifully short. Please open your microphone when you're speaking and close it when you aren't. Please address all questions and comments through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee will continue its study of the supplementary estimates (B).

We're pleased to have with us this afternoon the Honourable Carla Qualtrough, Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion; Graham Flack, deputy minister, employment and social development; Benoît Robidoux, associate deputy minister; and Mark Perlman, chief financial officer and senior assistant deputy minister.

Welcome back to all of the officials, and also to you, Minister. You have the floor for five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Minister of Employment]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me to join you today.

I am accompanied, as you said, by Graham Flack, my deputy minister; Benoît Robidoux, my associate deputy minister; and Mark Perlman, my chief financial officer for ESDC.

Today I will be speaking to supplementary estimates (B) for 2020–21. As you know, these supplementary estimates were tabled in the House of Commons on October 22 and passed through the House just three nights ago.

These supplementary estimates represent an additional $31.4 billion in planned budgetary expenditures. The bulk of this investment, $28.5 billion, can be attributed to the Canada emergency response benefit payments under statutory authorities, delivered by Service Canada and the CRA. From March to September, the CERB helped almost nine million Canadian workers get through a very difficult period. I also note that these supplementary estimates include funding for the safe restart agreement, training for workers, early learning and child care, youth programming, and training for personal support worker interns, just to name a few things.

Since March 2020, our world has completely changed, but our government’s priorities of supporting Canadian workers, investing in youth, and helping people overcome barriers to training and working remain the same.

When the pandemic first hit, we put a moratorium on Canada student loan and Canada apprentice loan repayments and introduced the Canada emergency response benefit. We then quickly put in place the Canada emergency student benefit to support students and recent graduates who were faced with fewer job opportunities in the summer. We also created thousands of jobs and training opportunities for youth and provided a one-time payment for persons with disabilities.

As the CERB was coming to an end, we made changes to the EI program so more people could access benefits, including regular and special benefits. For Canadians who don’t qualify for EI, we introduced a complementary new suite of recovery benefits: the Canada recovery benefit, the Canada recovery sickness benefit, and the Canada recovery caregiving benefit. Together, these measures are helping millions of Canadians through this challenging time.

I would now like to share a few words about the fall economic statement. There are a lot of important investments being made as a result of the FES to help ensure that Canadian workers, young Canadians, students and vulnerable populations, such as Canadians with disabilities, are part of Canada’s recovery, through things like easing the burden of student debt by eliminating the interest on repayment of the federal portion of the Canada student loans and Canada apprentice loans for 2021-22, expanding the Canada summer jobs program to fund 120,000 jobs, and enhancing the youth employment and skills strategy to create 45,000 job placements to help youth facing barriers.

We will also maintain our commitment to implement the changes to the registered disability savings plans announced in budget 2019 for beneficiaries who cease to be eligible for the disability tax credit. We'll make targeted investments in training to support the most vulnerable and those hardest hit by the pandemic, including women, racialized Canadians, indigenous people, persons with disabilities and skilled newcomers to Canada. This will be the largest investment in training in Canadian history.

We will invest in the opportunities fund for persons with disabilities, the indigenous skills and employment training program and the foreign credential recognition program. Lastly, we are investing in a new pilot program designed to support marginalized women by providing and testing pre-employment and skill development supports. I am confident it will be a game-changer for women by providing better ways to support them to join the workforce or get better jobs in communities across the country.

The fall economic statement is a plan to build back better. Together, we have the opportunity to provide Canadians with the certainty they need, along with the resources that will help them achieve success. I hope we can work together to pass Bill C-14 and see these important measures come to fruition sooner rather than later.

The appropriations requested in the supplementary estimates (B) passed this week have allowed us to continue to support Canadians during the pandemic and beyond. My officials and I are happy to answer your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We're going to begin with Mr. Kent for the Conservatives, please, for six minutes.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I would like to begin by thanking the minister for her direct answers in committees of the House and the Senate during the COVID pandemic, which is a sterling example, I think, for some of her cabinet colleagues.

Chair, I'd like to begin today with a letter from a Thornhill constituent, David Burke, who writes: “I received a letter from CRA yesterday saying they would not confirm that I met the requirements under CERB, namely, that I earned a self-employment income of at least $5,000 during 2019, or for the previous 12 months from the date of my first application for CERB.”

He writes, “I did in fact earn over $13,000 during 2019, but with some expenses, depreciation and home office expenses it brought my net income to zero. The website for CERB made no mention of net income, but rather asked if I earned self-employment income of at least $5,000 during 2019. I believe they are now changing the rules and they are asking for the money back.”

“Money in the bank,” Mr. Burke writes, “versus tax return at net income are two distinct things. One is accounting, the other is real life. Please try to rectify this problem.”

Chair, through you, does the minister see where the original wording promoting CERB was misleading for thousands of self-employed Canadians?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

May I, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry. I just wanted to make sure you could hear me.

I thank you for the question. I think there's a couple of things that I guess I would say.

First of all, we have to remember that CERB was there to help nine million people, you know, pay their bills and support their families.

The CRA has suspended collection activity on new debt during COVID-19. The letters that were issued were not letters demanding immediate payment. Rather, they were letters informing Canadians that CRA could not verify that they met the criteria—in this case, the $5,000 income threshold. I feel like I've been clear from the beginning when asked, and I know our background information.... When I was always asked from the beginning how self-employment income was calculated, I always said “net income”. The backgrounder said that.

I feel bad that people have misunderstood or that maybe the way we communicated has resulted in this misunderstanding, but I can assure the member that we didn't change the eligibility criteria. This is how CRA calculates self-employment income. I don't know how the individual constituent's income flows or what have you, but there's also a chance that during the 12 months, not just 2019, perhaps he made enough income net to qualify for the $5,000 threshold.

The purpose of the CRA letter was to give people information that at this time we couldn't verify their eligibility, so if they could prove eligibility, if they could maybe file their 2019 taxes or prove income during the past 12 months, then please do so. If they turn out not to be eligible, if they could remedy it by the end of the year, their tax income information would be more accurate going into next year. That's what we're dealing with.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Okay, Minister, as long as you understand that with the dozens of complaints that I have received—and I've heard hundreds more from others—it would seem that there are probably thousands of Canadians who, in the COVID crisis, with the loss of income, read that original promotion for CERB where there's no mention of “net”. Many of them say that the first time they saw the word “net” was in the CRA letter, which they find very distressing. Some of them say they simply can't afford to repay $14,000. Some are talking about having to sell tools, equipment and even their homes.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I'm deeply sorry for that. I'm worried about that. What I can say is that the CRA can do very, very minimal and flexible repayment plans, based on the ability of individuals to pay. It's small comfort—I hear myself saying that—and this is not a requirement to pay at this time. CRA is not requiring to people to pay at this time.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Okay. Well, thank you, Minister.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thank you.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I'd like now, Chair, to speak to the minister about Bill C-7, which was just passed in the past hour in the House and was sent to the Senate.

Does the minister agree with the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader, who says that amendments in the Senate to better protect the disabled and the most vulnerable Canadians would be unacceptable? I know that the minister said it would be worthy of consideration when she testified in—

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Just a second, Mr. Kent.

Mr. Long, go ahead.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair, I question the relevancy of the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

The minister is responsible for the status of persons with disabilities. Bill C-7 clearly touches on that, and she wandered into the fall economic statement, which is outside the scope of the supplementary estimates, so I'm going to allow the question.

Go ahead, Mr. Kent.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you.

I'd just like to come back and again and ask whether the minister agrees with the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader, who says that amendments in the Senate to better protect the disabled and most vulnerable Canadians would be unacceptable—amendments that the minister said in testimony in the House a couple of weeks ago would be worthy of consideration.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Well, thank you, and as I have said, probably in front of this committee—well, maybe not—I'm very open to making any piece of legislation that I'm involved with better. I made that statement probably eight times in my last appearance in front of the Senate. I am open to hearing the content of proposed amendments. We take these and, as a government, analyze them. I'd rather not comment on the positions of my colleagues, but my position is being open to consider anything that might make a law better.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Kent.

Thank you, Minister.

Next, we're going to go to Ms. Young.

Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before our committee once again. It's a pleasure to get a chance to talk to you before the holidays. It's been quite a year, to say the least, and these main supplementary estimates are a real testament to how busy this year has been. You mentioned the programs: CERB, Canada emergency student benefit, the one-time payment for persons with disabilities, and the Canada recovery benefits. There are massive programs that were put together in record time. How do the size and scope of these undertakings reflect on the public service as a whole?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thanks for the question. It's nice to hear your voice as well.

I think the effort and the work by the public service during these past months has really shown, and it's certainly lived up to its reputation of being world class during this pandemic. We've asked a lot of the public service during this crisis, and it's really delivered for us. We asked it to do new programs, as you said, and it has done them. We asked public servants to do this from their kitchen tables and they have done it. We asked them to do this while their kids were at home and they were juggling the extra demands of child care and worries around COVID, and they did it. Really, it's been incredible. These were massive public policy programs, new programs. Early on at ESDC, for example, we took stock of all of our resources, what we had at our disposal, and we went into the pandemic response very well aware of our limitations and very committed not to fail, and we didn't.

I'm just super grateful for their hard work and I really believe that Canadians have benefited. The unsung heroes of this entire effort are our public servants.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Well, thank you for that. I think it needed to be said, and I appreciate that you have given them all a pat on the back that doesn't come very often, so thank you for that.

You and I have had a number of conversations about how our government supports people with disabilities, and I was very proud to be a part of the Canada accessibility law that came into force just over a year ago. We have made great strides for people with disabilities, but I know we can do more. What do you hope to accomplish for people with disabilities as we find our way out of this pandemic?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

We have had the Accessible Canada Act as our foundation as we have built our pandemic response. We were committed to being disability inclusive from the beginning, but, quite frankly, the pandemic has really exacerbated already existing inequalities in our systems, and people with disabilities have faced unique and heightened challenges. Our systems have been stretched, and some of them have broken. For me and for our government, that meant responding very clearly in the Speech from the Throne by committing to Canada's first-ever disability inclusion plan, which will include a new Canadian disability benefit modelled after the GIS for seniors, which will include a robust employment strategy for persons with disabilities, and which will include a modern approach to disability inclusion within the Government of Canada—which, again, will be a legacy piece moving forward. Thank you for the question.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Chair, do I have time for one more?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You do. You still have two minutes.