Human Resources Committee on Dec. 10th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

It's distracting, I know.

Mr. Clerk, I'm not sure if we can get someone from IT here, or if there's some quick resolution of this before we resume. That would be ideal.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Andrew Wilson]

I'll look into it, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

For now, colleagues, I'm not going to suspend. We'll see if this can get resolved quickly, if you could just stand by.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to work through it. I was just commenting that it's a bit distracting, but I would not want you to suspend.

[The Clerk]

I'm sorry to intervene again.

Minister Qualtrough, IT in the room is telling me to make sure that you don't have any other speakers or anything like that turned on. That could be interfering with the sound you're receiving.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Okay. Could it be another cellphone, perhaps? I've moved everything away, so maybe that will be helpful. Sorry.

That's good advice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We'll give it a try. Let us know if there are any further issues that require intervention.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Gazan, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'd like to welcome the minister here today.

Minister, people who were struggling to make ends meet applied for the CERB in good faith. Now your government is going after people who are barely surviving the pandemic, yet your government isn't going after big corporations that received massive dividends to rich shareholders.

This is problematic, particularly in ridings experiencing severe poverty, including mine, which currently has an outbreak of trench fever, something that hasn't been seen for 100 years. Many people got the CERB or decided to take the CERB because of higher costs, for example, keeping their kids home from school, food costs, bill costs, and even being able to get their kids technology, for example, so that they could participate in school.

I want to ask you today, Minister, whether your government is willing to provide CERB repayment amnesty for low-income Canadians who claimed the CERB, including youth who have aged out of care during the pandemic.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thank you for the question.

I'm heartbroken when I hear stories like the ones you're sharing, and they're certainly not unique. This is happening across the country.

We put the CERB in place to help people who experienced job loss because of COVID, for COVID reasons, and we've been committed since the beginning, in cases where, in good faith, people accessed the CERB and they weren't eligible to do so, to work with them to repay it, because we had to have some integrity measures. We consciously chose to put them at the back end of the program in order to get money out to people quickly. We are now in that difficult period of running through the eligibility criteria and determining who was actually eligible for this benefit.

I remain as committed as ever to working with citizens in a dignified way on repayment plans. We are not currently contemplating an amnesty but we are looking to find ways to minimize the impact.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Just to let you know, Minister, I don't doubt that you have heartbreak, but in Manitoba, for example, people who were on income assistance and who accepted the CERB are now being cut off from income assistance completely—

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

—and are no longer receiving a benefit, so regardless of how bad we feel, this is going to result in families, certainly in my riding, being really impacted by the government's current actions and ending up on the streets—families that I am now having to assist through my office.

I would hope that your government would consider amnesty. It is unacceptable, certainly, in Canada that families, including children, could end up on the streets, particularly during a pandemic.

I have another question, and again I don't question your sincerity in that, but I'm letting you know that we have to do more.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

We have to do more than that. This is a human rights matter.

During the debate on Bill C-7 there has been a very clear message coming from the disability community that the human right to live in dignity is denied, and we know that, for example, 70% of adults with severe cognitive delays, individuals who might not even be able to work, live in abhorrent levels of poverty.

Will your government uphold its legal obligations and respect the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, something that we are obliged to do under our international legal obligations, and ensure that disabled persons have everything they need to live in dignity—things like a guaranteed livable basic income, affordable accessible social housing, and all other supports required to live in dignity, or will this government continue to break the rule of law by not upholding the convention going forward?

I ask that because I was really disappointed today, particularly in light of Bill C-7, that members of the Liberal Party and Conservative Party who boasted about dignity voted against this.

Is your government open to exploring that, yes or no?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

The short answer is yes. We've built in recognition of our obligations under the UNCRPD right into the preamble of Bill C-7, because we understand the relationship of equality rights to access to social, mental health and disability community support services. We can't fully realize those rights and have the choice that is afforded through those rights if we don't have access to these services.

That's why we're putting in place the Canada disability benefit. That's why we're going to work to have a more modern, dignified approach to disability within the federal government, absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next we're going to Ms. Falk, please, for five minutes.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being at our committee today. I want to follow up MP Kent's concerns about repayment of benefits.

I've had a number of constituents—it seems this is a trend across the country—who have reached out to me specifically regarding the letter they received from the CRA. These letters state that they have until December 31 to repay the CERB they've collected or they will be taxed in the next year. These constituents applied at the direction of Service Canada, but now have been told that they were ineligible because the income threshold was based on net income and not gross income.

One constituent—and this is a little concerning to me—was even told by a Service Canada agent that the government wanted to get money in the hands of people as quickly as possible and that the rules were developed later. I'm sure you would agree that these individuals—I would say most of them—applied in good faith, according to the information provided to them, but now they're facing hardship at Christmastime. When these constituents do call in to attempt to make flexible arrangements, they're put on hold endlessly. In some cases, they're disconnected, so they've waited for hours and then are disconnected.

I'm just wondering, Minister, what steps you are taking to ensure that these Canadians who received misinformation about CERB are not facing undue hardship this Christmas.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thank you for a follow-up. There's a lot in your question. Let me try to answer.

I can assure you that the rules were not made up after the release of the program. We thought about this from the beginning. As I said, I feel my messaging has been clear on this regardless of where we are. It's really unfortunate that people are in the position they're in, and we're trying to find a way to work with people who aren't eligible. We had to have some eligibility thresholds. Graham can give you more detail on how we came up with the $5,000, but that was the level of income we determined would show some connection to the labour force.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Regarding the Service Canada messaging, I would argue, being a member of Parliament, that when Service Canada closed its locations and all of a sudden our offices and our staff were doing that because everything was overloaded.... I understand that we were in crisis and all of that, but even the information that offices were receiving wasn't necessarily accurate. There's a disconnect there. I guess we're going to have to move forward.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

March is March, and hopefully 2021 will be better.

I'm interested to know how you were working with the Minister of National Revenue to ensure that there are enough agents to help Canadians in a timely fashion, who are calling in for payment flexibility. I ask because it's not okay for somebody to wait on hold hours upon hours and then be disconnected or end up not talking to anybody at all.