Evidence of meeting #16 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Thanks very much.
I think I'll step away from the anecdotal evidence, the guessing and the extrapolations and just try to deal with the facts. I'm a former journalist and in my newsroom, they told you that if your mother says she loves you, you still need a second source. I'll try and stick to the facts here.
On page 4, you make the statement that:
Finance Canada's major transfers to the provinces also contribute to the pool of resources available for housing. It is not possible to determine the extent to which these transfers affect provincial spending on Indigenous housing.
You don't know what the provinces spend with federal dollars on indigenous housing. I assume that's what that statement means.
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It means we can't follow specific dollars from [Inaudible—Editor]—
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Well, we don't have a pure connection.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Right.
On page 25, you say that “within CMHC, most of the funding to address housing affordability is disbursed...to the provinces”. That means that for the bulk of the spending we're doing, you have no line of sight as to whether it's being spent on indigenous housing through the provinces. In other words, when we transfer money to the provinces without strings and criteria and reporting mechanisms, we actually don't know what they're spending it on.
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
We don't know for sure. That's right. We can't attach one dollar of federal expenditures to that specific aboriginal housing. That's why we had to make assumptions as to the proportion. If a province spends half of its own funding, we would assume that half of the federal dollars would go there.
It's quite possible that federal dollars displace provincial.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
That is interesting because in the same report you talked about how, on average, the average province spends about 25% of its funding on indigenous housing. Manitoba is the lowest, which is surprising. It's a historic low across all provinces. It has the lowest expenditure on subsidized housing for indigenous people.
What I find also interesting about that is that you claim that 53% of indigenous people are in subsidized housing, but you don't know who's subsidizing it.
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's subsidized—
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Yes. It could be a mix of funding that comes from the feds, from the province or the municipality, in some instances.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
In the areas where you do have clear federal jurisdiction on the rapid housing initiative, you've identified that only 127 new units are targeted.
I was very heavily involved in the design of the rapid housing initiative. Can you tell me where you got the target of 127 new units under rapid housing? Where does the figure 127 come from?
My understanding is there is no hard target set. There is prioritized, but not targeted.
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's data that we got from CMHC.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Is that data from CMHC on what they've targeted or what they've achieved so far, halfway through a program?
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I think it's what they've achieved, but I'll turn to—
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I don't know all the details—
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Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
—of every single program.
5:35 p.m.
Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's the financial commitments to date. It's not the target for the program. There is no explicit allocation within the rapid housing strategy for indigenous housing.
5:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
We can get back to you on that.
