Evidence of meeting #16 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
Thank you. It's an amazing discussion all around.
I have a point of clarification, Mr. Giroux, on the $600-million and change shortfall that you reference in your report. Would that include an improved administrative capacity, or did that analysis include the status quo and not account for any of the project improvements we discussed in earlier questions?
5:45 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Ben and Caroline can probably answer that question with a higher level of certainty than me.
5:45 p.m.
Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
The $636-million cost reflects the gap between what indigenous households are currently paying and either the affordable level or the cost of market housing, if the housing is inadequate. We believe that would be the cost to close that gap, excluding administrative costs, under an efficient program design.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
It accounts for program improvements.
On another point of clarification, how much money has CMHC, since 2015, put into Canada's general revenue fund?
5:45 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's probably billions of dollars, but I would have to get back to you with a specific answer because it varies year by year. It depends on retained earnings or not and the dividend it pays or doesn't pay to the government in any given year.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
How much money, since 2015, has the government spent on all of its programs and, secondly, on indigenous programs?
5:50 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
To give you a total since 2015, we'll probably have to get back to you with a precise number as well.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
That would be very helpful because I found it odd, given how much we know indigenous people don't have adequate housing, that CMHC paid dividends to the federal government.
5:50 p.m.
Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I guess I would clarify that there are separate business lines, so the dividends don't arise from the assisted housing programs. The assisted housing programs are funded by appropriations from the Government of Canada, so they're not using the profits from their mortgage insurance business to cover the cost of assisted housing programs.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
Thank you.
I have no further questions. If Rosemarie would like any time, I'm good to go.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Okay.
We're going to close, then, with Mr. Turnbull for five minutes.
Go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to Mr. Giroux and his team for being here today.
I appreciate the report and all the work that you've put into it.
I understand that the objective of the report is to identify what programs are in place, what expenditure is currently in place and what the housing needs are; to identify the gap; and to talk or project a little bit about what the cost would be to address or close that gap. Would you say that that's correct?
5:50 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Yes, I think that's a very accurate depiction of what we attempted to do, to provide you with that type of information.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Great.
Maybe I can just ask a few clarifications even around that.
You said in your opening remarks, Mr. Giroux, that 124,000 individuals, indigenous people, were in housing need. How does that break down into those who may be homeless, those who may be living in inadequate or unsuitable housing, those perhaps living in supportive housing, or those living in housing that requires some level of subsidy?
5:50 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Caroline and Ben can probably provide you with a more accurate breakdown.
5:50 p.m.
Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I'll refer, maybe, to the matrix on page 14. Just to clarify with regard to the 124,000, we're talking about households, so the number of people would be much greater.
To start, of those 124,000 households, we estimate that 31,000 are in subsidized housing. Here subsidized housing, according to Statistics Canada in the census definitions, could be rent subsidies, social housing or any other housing support that they might receive. However, the total number of households that we estimate receive subsidized housing in Canada is 67,000.
If we were to talk about the number of people in unsuitable housing, I can pull that up really quickly for you.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
If it's easier, I could just suggest that maybe that information could be tabled because I don't want you to have to search through the report. I have limited time. Would that be okay, Ms. Nicol?
Mr. Giroux said yes with a thumbs-up sign. Great.
What I was going to ask is this: In terms of the average cost to renovate or retrofit an unsuitable or inadequate unit of housing, do we have an estimate of how much that would cost?
5:50 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
No. We have an estimate of the cost of building a unit. With regard to retrofitting or renovating, the cost would depend on the extent of the damage and the extent to which we want to retrofit to current standards or to go beyond those. I don't think that's data that we have, but we have the cost to build from scratch, on average.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Okay, great.
What is the cost to build an affordable housing unit without all the program-added costs? I think it was in there at $297,000. Is that right?
5:55 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It depends by jurisdiction. It depends where you are in the country. There are some areas that have lower costs, obviously, and areas where the cost is much higher. I think we have that as well. I can tell you for sure that in the north it's always a bit more expensive because of the short construction season and the cost to get materials up north.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Do you have an estimate of how many affordable housing units we would need to build to solve the indigenous housing crisis that we have in this country?
5:55 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
We can probably derive that. When we say there's about 124,000 households that are in housing need, that's probably about what we'd need to build to solve the housing needs of the indigenous population. That, of course, would have to take into account the demographic increases of that fast-growing population.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
I know you've estimated this $636-million gap, but I noticed the way you defined that gap was that it was how much people paid compared to what was considered affordable. I'm not sure whether that actually addresses....
I'm just wondering whether I can draw this conclusion. If we added $636 million to support closing that gap, are you saying that would actually solve the crisis that we're in?
I don't see how that makes sense to me. I think we need to build a lot more housing. The supply is not there. That's part of the problem. It's not a matter of just helping people afford to buy houses if there are none in existence.
5:55 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
This $636 million would bridge the affordability gap, but it would not bridge the suitable shelter gap. There would still be households that would be in inappropriate housing— too small, too decrepit for their needs, or too decrepit, period. At least they wouldn't pay exorbitant prices, or they wouldn't pay more than they could afford using CMHC's definition of affordability.
