Evidence of meeting #4 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Romy Bowers  Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Chantal Marin-Comeau  Director General, Reconciliation Secretariat, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Janet Goulding  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Chad Westmacott  Director General, Community Infrastructure Branch, Department of Indigenous Services
Lindsay Neeley  Director, Indigenous and the North Housing Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Kris Johnson  Director General, Homelessness Policy Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Wilson

8 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you.

I have a question for ESDC.

Many indigenous advocates and housing providers continue to question, without receiving an answer, why the federal government insists on implementing policies that balkanize on-reserve and off-reserve indigenous peoples.

The Reaching Home program illustrates this starkly. The indigenous homelessness stream provides support for off-reserve indigenous people, while the new distinctions-based and modern treaty holder funding stream denies this support.

The Aboriginal Housing Management Association, which I believe we'll be able to hear from in a future meeting, provided the following feedback on the national housing strategy in 2016, and I quote:

While this is common of all citizens, First Nations, Aboriginals and Indigenous people live between two solitudes of on-reserve and off-reserve, often moving back and forth between. Yet federal and provincial governments and housing services are delivered completely distinctly and usually roll-out of new programs that are pre-defined. This piecemeal approach neglects to deliver support to the whole person.... To replace jurisdictional and bureaucratic barriers to Indigenous Peoples with an AHMA-based model that puts responsibility in the hands of regional providers and supports individuals through delivery of meaningful solutions that address housing issues.

That's from someone in B.C.

Why didn't the government listen to and implement the solutions put forward by indigenous experts working in the housing sector when that program was developed, and why hasn't it been improved?

8:05 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Janet Goulding

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

In terms of the indigenous homelessness funding under Reaching Home, I think what the program strives to do is to strike a balance between maintaining the very important services that we have right now in urban communities, as provided by the indigenous homelessness stream, and to work with our national indigenous organizations to ensure that new funding meets the needs of the Métis, Inuit and first nations peoples in Canada.

I would say that as we move through that co-development process with our national indigenous organizations, this funding is largely still unallocated, and it will, hopefully, support the needs of all indigenous peoples across Canada as that allocation becomes clear.

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Ms. Goulding.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Vis, and thank you, Ms. Goulding.

Next we are going to Mr. Vaughan for five minutes, please.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

Thank you very much. I have a few very quick questions, just to clear up some loose ends.

In terms of provincial transfers, the housing accords have now been signed with all provinces and territories. Indigenous housing dollars are contained inside those transfers. Do we track how much is spent and whether or not it's spent as intended?

I guess that question will go to Madame Goulding.

8:05 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Janet Goulding

In terms of Reaching Home, we don't do transfers to—

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

No, these are the housing accords with the provinces and territories. When we do block transfers to the provinces, there are legacy programs that are indigenous-led, -designed and -delivered. Do we track whether or not the provinces actually delivered the intended dollars to those providers, or is it just a general transfer?

8:05 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Janet Goulding

In terms of housing programs, I'm going to have to refer to my colleagues at CMHC.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

My apologies.

8:05 p.m.

Director, Indigenous and the North Housing Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Lindsay Neeley

Mr. Chair, I can respond to that question.

We do have, through the new bilateral agreements with each province and territory, some funding directed directly towards indigenous housing, and reporting is done publicly through action plans submitted by each jurisdiction.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

Okay.

In particular, in terms of the housing subsidies for the operating agreements, there have been some lapsed agreements. Where have they gone and why are they lapsing if we've transferred dollars to the provinces, particularly in Ontario?

8:05 p.m.

Director, Indigenous and the North Housing Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Lindsay Neeley

I'm afraid we'd have to follow up with a written response on that one.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

Okay.

Madame Marin-Comeau, would multi-year block funding to an indigenous-led urban, rural and northern housing program deal with some of the geography and seasonal construction issues? If they had multiple years to assemble resources and multiple years to use them, would that be better than an annual turnover and an annual project-by-project approach?

8:05 p.m.

Director General, Reconciliation Secretariat, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Chantal Marin-Comeau

Thank you very much for the question.

I'd like to clarify that it is not done project by project. It is a block of funding that is offered directly to Inuit or the Métis Nation. Those funding arrangements are very flexible. They actually can roll over the funding from one year to the other.

I think what you're pointing to is that we've provided the flexibility for those indigenous partners to roll over funds to accommodate some of the challenges, as you've just mentioned, such as the geography and some of those construction challenges, particularly in the north. We've built that into the funding arrangements with indigenous partners. It mitigates some of those challenges that you've just mentioned.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

To go back to CMHC, in terms of all the programs in the national housing strategy, there is no program that prevents an urban, rural or northern application. Is that true?

8:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

That's correct.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

The programs—even the rapid housing initiative—are designed to overlap with those programs, so if there are gaps, they can work in concert if needed.

8:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

That is correct.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

In terms of Reaching Home, in some of the larger centres—Vancouver and Winnipeg being two—we are now starting to see where indigenous leadership is actually taking over the designated community streams. Even though it's not part of the indigenous stream, indigenous leadership is in fact designing programs for the whole community, not just for themselves.

That may be for Madame Goulding.

8:10 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Janet Goulding

Thank you for that question. Yes, that is correct.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

We're encouraging and supporting that process. If an urban program were to emerge, would blending those programs also be a possibility if the government decided so?

8:10 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Janet Goulding

In terms of Reaching Home, we always encourage our designated community entities and our indigenous community entities to work together.

We certainly recognize the importance of ensuring that both of those dedicated funding streams serve the needs of the homeless individuals and their communities, because we know that there is an overrepresentation of indigenous persons. So, absolutely, we encourage that kind of collaboration.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

In Quebec, with Reaching Home, the money is transferred through the provincial government. It's the only place in the country where that happens. Our ability to fine-tune that into indigenous-led programs must be agreed to by the Government of Quebec before the federal government can spend directly into those communities with direct housing programs, including Reaching Home, as well as the general national housing strategy. That's one of the challenges we face in Quebec.

8:10 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Janet Goulding

I can only speak to Reaching Home, and I'll defer to my colleagues on housing at CMHC. In Quebec, the indigenous homelessness stream is managed directly by Service Canada, so we do that on a project-by-project basis. The designated community stream and the rural and remote funding streams are co-managed with the Government of Quebec, and we set priorities jointly with them for that funding.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Vaughan, and thank you, Ms. Goulding.

We have about three minutes left, so we'll go with a couple of questions from the Bloc Québécois and from the NDP to finish up.

Ms. Chabot, you have two minutes.