Evidence of meeting #4 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Romy Bowers  Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Chantal Marin-Comeau  Director General, Reconciliation Secretariat, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Janet Goulding  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Chad Westmacott  Director General, Community Infrastructure Branch, Department of Indigenous Services
Lindsay Neeley  Director, Indigenous and the North Housing Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Kris Johnson  Director General, Homelessness Policy Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Wilson

November 17th, 2020 / 6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number four of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House of Commons order of September 23, 2020. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

First, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. I remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair, and when you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. From the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, we have Romy Bowers, senior vice-president, client solutions; and Lindsay Neeley, director, housing solutions, indigenous and the north. From the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, we have Chantal Marin-Comeau, director general, reconciliation secretariat. From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Janet Goulding, associate assistant deputy minister, income security and social development branch; and Kris Johnson, director general, homelessness policy directorate. Also, from the Department of Indigenous Services, we have Chad Westmacott, director general, community infrastructure branch.

I understand CMHC is going to go first.

Will it be you, Ms. Bowers?

6:35 p.m.

Romy Bowers Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Yes.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

You have the floor for five minutes for your opening remarks.

6:35 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm joining you today from Toronto, the traditional territory of the Wendat, the Anishinabe, Haudenosaunee, Métis, and the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

It’s a great pleasure to appear before this committee on behalf of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. We are Canada’s national housing agency. We are guided by a very bold aspiration: By 2030 everyone in Canada has a home that they can afford and that meets their needs.

To achieve this goal, we know that we must do more to address the diverse and pressing housing needs of indigenous peoples. For indigenous households living in urban, rural and northern areas, the rate of core housing need is 18%, as compared to the national average of 12.7%. The housing needs are most dire across the territories, where approximately one-third of the indigenous population lives in unacceptable housing. There is much still to do, but we believe there are many reasons to be optimistic.

Even in the midst of a global pandemic, CMHC is actively working with new and existing partners to help address the exceptional housing challenges created by the COVID-19 crisis. At CMHC, we have quickly rolled out a number of new initiatives that will support indigenous and northern housing needs. For example, we are delivering a new shelter initiative that will fund the construction of 12 new shelters for indigenous women and children across the country over the next five years. We are also supporting close to 400 indigenous youth to secure employment in the housing sector, at a time when jobs can be difficult to find. Last month, we launched a new rapid housing initiative, a $1-billion program to help address urgent housing needs by expediting the creation of permanent affordable housing.

In addition to these recent initiatives, we continue to offer funding and financing options to support indigenous and northern housing needs through the national housing strategy. Launched in 2017, the national housing strategy was developed in consultation with Canadians and various partners, including provinces and territories, indigenous organizations and community housing providers. There is more than $55 billion being delivered through various programs and initiatives, and we have prioritized indigenous and northern housing needs across them all.

For example, through the national housing co-investment fund, we have invested over $121 million over the past two years to support 577 units serving indigenous and northern housing needs. There is also $125 million set aside within this fund to target specific needs, including repairs to the existing urban indigenous housing stock and for projects in the north.

We are also supporting indigenous-led innovation, research and demonstrations projects to help communities explore culturally appropriate and industry-leading housing models or technologies.

I'd like to point out that provinces and territories play a key role in supporting indigenous and northern housing. Through new bilateral agreements with CMHC, provinces and territories are delivering various programs, including the new Canada housing benefit, which will help low-income households access affordable housing.

In addition, there is $200 million in targeted funding being provided through the Canada community housing initiative to protect and preserve affordability among existing units serving indigenous households. Although not indigenous-specific, targeted funding for the territories will benefit indigenous peoples living in the north. There is $447 million being provided through bilateral agreements with three territories, including $300 million to address the higher housing costs and needs of the north.

Reducing chronic homelessness is also a key priority of the national housing strategy, and my colleagues at ESDC will be speaking later about funding and programs being delivered to address homelessness.

There are various other programs under the national housing strategy umbrella, and we are actively working to ensure that indigenous housing providers and organizations can access these funds and make the most of these programs to address their needs. We have recently created an indigenous and northern housing solutions team at CMHC to provide dedicated support for our clients.

However, we recognize that to advance reconciliation we need housing strategies that are for indigenous people and led by indigenous people.

We are very proud to be an active partner in working with first nations, Inuit and Métis organizations alongside Indigenous Services Canada and CIRNAC on distinctions-based housing strategies. My colleagues from these departments can provide more details on these initiatives.

We'll also be working with indigenous partners, housing providers and others to identify critical housing needs and gaps in urban, rural and northern areas. This work will complement a larger plan to address critical infrastructure needs in indigenous communities.

For many years, we have offered funding through various legacy housing programs to build new housing or repair or renovate existing housing in first nations communities. We provide the tools and training to first nations to assist with housing management, maintenance and construction. In 2019-20 alone, these programs helped to build or renovate some 1,200 homes and preserve rent subsidies to 22,600 households.

These programs are complemented by initiatives delivered by Indigenous Services Canada. Together, we invest some $326 million annually on first nations housing on reserve.

Finally, I'd like to note that our real change starts within CMHC. At CMHC, we want to do our part. I'd like to highlight a few actions we are taking in support of our reconciliation initiatives.

We have nominated an executive-level special adviser on indigenous housing and reconciliation and are in the process of establishing an indigenous advisory council. This work will touch on all facets of our country and company, including our business practices and relationships with indigenous peoples and organizations.

Our reconciliation work is also being supported by our indigenous employee resource group. We're offering training to all employees on reconciliation. We will also support the transition of our dedicated housing programs for indigenous housing toward indigenous self-determination, care and control.

We are very pleased that this committee will be exploring the gaps and barriers in urban, rural and northern indigenous housing as part of its study. We are committed to doing our part to help build a better future for indigenous peoples across the country.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will be very pleased to answer any questions the committee may have regarding my opening remarks.

Thank you so much.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Bowers.

Ms. Marin-Comeau, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

6:45 p.m.

Chantal Marin-Comeau Director General, Reconciliation Secretariat, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Thank you.

Kwe kakina. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for having me here today.

I would first like to recognize the traditional territory of the Algonquin nation where I'm currently situated. I would also like to recognize the traditional territories from which you are participating.

I'm pleased to represent Crown Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, which is responsible for overseeing some of the Government of Canada's initiatives related to Inuit and Métis Nation housing.

Safe, healthy and affordable housing provides the foundation for individuals and families to achieve better health and socio-economic outcomes. For indigenous peoples, it's also a way to live their culture, stay connected to their communities and be able to participate in society and the economy.

These are the reasons that, in 2017, through the Inuit-Crown Partnership Committee and through the Canada-Métis Nation Accord, federal and indigenous leadership committed to working together to take important steps to address the significant housing needs.

Today, I am happy to speak in particular about our work with Inuit and the Métis Nation.

I would like to start my remarks by giving you a few of the current statistics. According to the 2017 report from the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, over 50% of Inuit in Inuit Nunangat, the traditional homeland of Inuit, live in crowded homes. We have heard stories of 15 people sharing a three-bedroom home, of entranceways and boiler rooms being turned into sleeping areas, and of children taking turns sleeping because there is just not enough room.

Over 30% of Inuit live in homes needing major repairs. Overcrowding contributes to the rate of tuberculosis in Inuit communities, and that rate is about 300 times higher than the rate among non-indigenous Canadians. Métis people experience core housing need at a rate 25% higher than non-indigenous Canadians.

Therefore, in budget 2016 and budget 2018, Canada invested a combined $980 million in distinctions-based funding to address Inuit and Métis housing needs. This includes $80 million in 2016 over two years and $400 million in 2018 over 10 years to support the Inuit-led housing strategy with direct investments in Nunavik, Nunatsiavut and the Inuvialuit regions. It also includes $500 million in 2018 over 10 years to support the Métis Nation housing strategy.

This was the first time that investments in indigenous housing by design took a distinctions-based, indigenous-led approach and delivery.

The co-developed Inuit Nunangat housing strategy, which was released in April 2019, and the Métis Nation Housing Sub-Accord signed in 2018 were designed by indigenous partners and will be delivered by indigenous partners.

The strategies recognize the importance of long-term planning, direct investments provided to indigenous partners, and the need for innovation and experimentation and for taking into consideration the housing development challenges.

Here are a few of the results to date.

Since 2016, Inuit housing authorities have overseen the construction of approximately 480 housing units, with an estimated 550 more to be completed by the end of budget 2018. Since 2018, Métis Nation housing authorities have overseen the construction or purchase of nearly 200 units while renovating nearly 1,000 and subsidizing rents for nearly 1,200 Métis citizens.

These approaches directly lead to employment and business opportunities because of indigenous leadership's strong commitments to ensure that maximum benefits remain in their communities. These strategies are being delivered in flexible and innovative ways, reflecting indigenous lifestyles, traditions and culture.

In response to the COVID-19 pandemic, indigenous partners have directed some of their housing investments to deliver short-term emergency rental subsidies and temporary shelters for people living in unsuitable conditions.

As you can see, some progress has been made in addressing Métis and Inuit housing needs, but there remain significant challenges. Some of these challenges relate solely to geography. Of particular significance for Inuit is that housing construction in remote locations is characterized by a short construction season and by high costs of construction materials and labour.

Enhanced coordination among programs and services offered from federal, provincial, territorial and municipal governments is also required. There is a complex patchwork of programs, services and funding opportunities available from different levels of government.

Inuit and Métis Nation partners have also identified the need to build capacity in their regions to take on greater roles and responsibilities in housing development and management, and to promote innovation and experimentation in housing.

We also know that funding is not consistent or sufficient to address the degree of housing gap, and long-term planning is required.

What are the next steps?

The 2020 Speech from the Throne recognized the need for continued attention to housing in indigenous communities, and committed to making ongoing progress to increase safe and affordable housing for indigenous people.

We have taken important steps with Inuit and Métis Nation partners, and these are guided by Canada's commitment to reconciliation with indigenous people, but also to self-determination. Results of the current strategies so far indicate that we're on the right path, that distinctions-based, self-determined approaches lead to more effective results, but a lot more needs to be done.

Together, we can ensure that the most immediate housing needs are addressed, while establishing a strong and equal foundation for Inuit and Métis Nation housing.

Meegwetch.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Marin-Comeau.

Next, we have Ms. Goulding, from the Department of Employment and Social Development.

Ms. Goulding, you have the floor for five minutes.

6:50 p.m.

Janet Goulding Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people from which I am joining you this evening. I have the privilege to work and live here.

Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you for the invitation to speak with you today about the federal government's approach to preventing and addressing urban, rural and northern indigenous homelessness.

This evening I will provide a description of the Reaching Home program, a brief history of federal indigenous homelessness programming, and an overview of the current federal efforts to address indigenous homelessness, including in urban, rural and northern communities.

Reaching Home, Canada's homelessness strategy, is a community-based program aimed at preventing and reducing homelessness across Canada. Reaching Home replaced the homelessness partnering strategy in April 2019 and represents a $2.2-billion investment over 10 years to tackle homelessness.

Under Reaching Home, direct financial support is provided to community entities. These are organizations responsible for managing funding in their community or region according to homelessness needs and priorities.

Reaching Home supports the goals of the national housing strategy, in particular its objectives to assist the most vulnerable Canadians in maintaining safe, stable and affordable housing, and to reduce chronic homelessness in half by 2028. This is a goal that will be evolving along the lines expressed in the last Speech from the Throne.

To understand Reaching Home, it's useful to look to past federal homelessness programming. The overrepresentation of indigenous people in the homeless population has been known for some time, and significant investments have been made under federal homelessness programming to address this issue.

In 1999, the government launched the national homelessness initiative, and under this initiative it introduced an aboriginal homelessness stream. Dedicated funding was provided for the first time to indigenous organizations to provide programs and services that met the distinct needs of indigenous people experiencing or at risk of experiencing homelessness.

While the initial aboriginal homelessness stream only provided $8.1 million annually to eight cities across Canada, the funding was later increased to expand to other communities, and the annual total investment eventually reached $14.3 million. Budget 2016 then doubled the funding available under this stream to bring it to $28.7 million annually.

Since the launch of Reaching Home, financial support to reduce indigenous homelessness has expanded to 30 urban communities and seven regional areas, including a recent expansion to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador.

Reaching Home recognizes that indigenous people are overrepresented in homelessness. That is why $413 million has been dedicated to address indigenous homelessness over nine years. Of this amount, the program is investing $261 million over nine years—approximately $29 million a year—through the existing indigenous homelessness stream to maintain the community-based approach and to help organizations provide culturally appropriate supports and services for all indigenous people in those communities.

In addition, as part of the Reaching Home program, a new funding envelope of $152 million over nine years was created for the development and implementation of distinction-based approaches to homelessness.

ESDC has been engaging with national indigenous organizations in alignment with the permanent bilateral mechanisms to ensure that funding meaningfully responds to the needs of first nations, Métis and Inuit. Our engagement efforts are focused on identifying homelessness-related priorities and concluding funding agreements to pursue distinctions-based approaches.

For the first time, funding for modern treaty holders that have provisions in their treaties related to health and social services is also being explored. ESDC has identified 20 modern treaty holders with these provisions, and engagement to establish homelessness funding agreements is at various stages.

I will also note that Reaching Home established a new territorial homelessness stream, with funding of $23 million over five years. While the territorial homelessness stream is not indigenous-specific, it does have a significant focus on indigenous homelessness, given the high proportion of indigenous peoples in these territories.

Further, Reaching Home has two other funding streams—the designated communities stream and the rural and remote homelessness stream—and these can also help provide supports and services to indigenous peoples.

While it is important to recognize that the investments have been increased over time and program improvements have been made, our work is clearly not done. In 2018, 30% of the homeless population in Canada identified as indigenous, while indigenous peoples account for roughly 5% of the total population.

The prevalence of indigenous homelessness and the overrepresentation of indigenous people within the homeless population are ongoing concerns. They are linked to the experience with colonialism, to intergenerational trauma, as well as to a number of other structural, systemic, individual or relational factors.

That is why we welcome this committee's interest in the issue of indigenous homelessness, particularly in the context of the recent Speech from the Throne commitment to ending chronic homelessness, because it will be imperative to prevent and address indigenous homelessness if we are to attain this ambitious goal.

I look forward to recommendations on how urban, rural and northern indigenous housing and homelessness can be addressed, and I will do my best to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Goulding.

Next we're going to hear from the Department of Indigenous Services.

Mr. Westmacott, go ahead, please.

6:55 p.m.

Chad Westmacott Director General, Community Infrastructure Branch, Department of Indigenous Services

Good evening.

Thank you for the opportunity to present the work that Indigenous Services Canada is undertaking in collaboration with Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, Employment and Social Development Canada, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and first nations partners to address the housing gap for indigenous people on and off reserve.

Before I proceed, I would like to recognize that I am presenting from the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin nation.

By way of introduction, I'm Chad Westmacott, director general of the community infrastructure branch within Indigenous Services Canada. My branch leads policy development, interpretation and implementation for infrastructure that helps to ensure that first nations communities have access to high-quality education facilities, clean drinking water and better housing.

Housing is a fundamental need for all Canadians, including indigenous people. All should have access to safe, adequate and affordable housing.

We know that first nations, Inuit and Métis are more likely to experience poor housing conditions, overcrowding and homelessness than the general population. We also know that overcrowding can be a key indicator of hidden homelessness, where people have access to accommodation but have no immediate prospect of permanent or stable housing.

Not having access to adequate housing has impacts on community and family well-being. For example, not having an adequate place to sleep or study can impact education, health and the ability to secure and maintain work. Housing is a core element of the social determinants of health, and its impacts are great, both on individuals and families.

COVID-19 has further illustrated the housing gap and the impacts housing has on human health. It has also emphasized the importance of working with indigenous communities to address their housing requirements.

In relation to housing on reserve, ISC supports first nations in the development of sustainable and community-driven housing solutions. This includes providing approximately $140 million in ongoing annual funding and has, for the past five years, included an additional $200 million annually in time-limited funding through budgets 2016 and 2018, for a total of $1 billion from those budgets. These funds are used to address urgent housing needs and support new construction and repairs to first nations housing units on reserve.

As of June 2020, ISC and Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have jointly supported the construction, renovation or retrofit of 20,096 homes and servicing of 1,127 lots, benefiting 595 first nations communities. ISC has also been supporting 992 housing-related capacity development and innovation projects in first nations communities. These projects include supporting the creation and implementation of housing authorities and housing management training.

In April 2019, the department also launched the $36-million indigenous homes innovation initiative. The initiative directly supports innovative indigenous-led and community-driven ideas that could lead to better housing and social conditions in rural, urban and remote first nations, Inuit and Métis communities.

Our support for first nations through these investments is improving living conditions. For example, the Anishnabe Nation of Lac Simon built eight semi-detached mini houses suitable for both seniors and single-parent families, to better respond to the needs of vulnerable people living alone.

Pelican Lake First Nation introduced new housing policies around home ownership, a housing maintenance program for tenants, and training on newly upgraded software used in on-reserve housing management for the community's housing staff. This has enhanced its ability to ensure that community members have comfortable, quality housing for generations to come.

These investments are only the first step in moving beyond responding to critical needs. To this end, ISC is working with the Assembly of First Nations and Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to co-develop a 10-year first nations housing and related infrastructure strategy. The overall goal of the strategy is to improve housing conditions for first nations and ensure that all first nations have access to safe, adequate and healthy housing, thus creating sustainable and healthy communities.

This work supports first nations to identify their priorities, to prepare for the transfer of housing programs and services, and to identify how they want to be involved in addressing urban, rural and northern housing issues.

Next steps for the strategy include the co-development of an implementation plan to describe short-, medium- and long-term outcomes. Simultaneously, first nations-owned data and information is being gathered by first nations to inform further development and implementation of the strategy.

Finally, in support of closing the critical infrastructure gap by 2030, which includes housing, ISC is working with indigenous partners to co-develop plans that will support community-led investments in infrastructure that will help address disparities. This is balanced by a longer-term vision to stabilize infrastructure funding to ensure that resources are available to enable the successful transfer of housing services to first nations.

In closing, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to the ongoing work that my department is doing to close the housing gap in collaboration with federal partners and indigenous people and organizations.

Thank you.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Westmacott.

Now we're going to proceed with rounds of questions, beginning with the Conservatives.

Mr. Schmale, you have six minutes.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you for the testimony from our witnesses. There is some great information there.

I'd like to start with my question regarding the rapid housing initiative. Looking at the need and what we heard in the testimony just a few moments ago, clearly there is a need in the north. There are a whole bunch of things. There's stock; there are the terrible conditions; there's overcrowding and that type of thing. Was there funding dedicated to the north in the rapid housing initiative?

7 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Thank you very much for that question, Mr. Chair. I'll take that question on behalf of the CMHC.

There is no dedicated funding or carve-out for the north. However, having said that, we do have a prioritization process. The whole rationale for rapid housing is to bring money to the people who need it most.

One of the witnesses we have here is Lindsay Neeley. She has a group of people who are actively looking at applications that are coming from the north and ensuring that support is given to organizations from the north that are trying to access that funding. They are making sure the needed priority is given to those applications.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

I might as well stick with my friend from the CMHC.

In the recent “Northern Housing Report”, it looks like the CMHC is no longer able to provide forecasts outside of three major urban centres in the north. According to your website, it's due to a lack of available data. Can you tell us why there is less information available?

7:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Thank you very much for that question, Mr. Schmale.

We do have a dedicated housing economist team that collects data across the country. There are challenges associated with collecting data in the north. I can get back to you on the question regarding the very specific challenges that exist in the north. We can also include steps that we're taking to address this data gap in the long term.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

It's my understanding that this data gap is fairly new. If that is true and my understanding is correct, where did the information come from before that you aren't able to get now?

7:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Thank you very much again for that question. I will provide a written response to that as well.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Okay, perfect.

I want to continue on with your testimony. You mentioned that by 2030 “everyone in Canada has a home that they can afford and that meets their needs”. Do you have a costing on that, by any chance?

7:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

As I mentioned in my remarks, there's been a historic investment in support of affordable housing by the federal government. The amount being invested is $55 billion over 10 years. CMHC views that as the foundation on which all our activities are built.

We work with our partners in provinces and territories, and also with non-profits and the private sector. Our aim is to use the $55 billion—which is a significant investment—and also to attract other sources of capital to make sure that we address the housing needs of all Canadians.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

I look on your website when you talk about your aspirations. Making sure everyone has a home by 2030 is quite aspirational indeed. It's good to shoot for the stars, but also realize the realities. There is an asterisk on your website here. It reads, “All people physically living in Canada, regardless of citizenship”. Can you expand on that and tell me what that means?

7:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

We tried to be inclusive in our aspiration. You're absolutely correct; it is an aspiration and it is a moon shot we're striving towards. We tried to be inclusive in that. We tried to address all people who are living in Canada, regardless of their citizenship. This would include people such as new immigrants or refugees who might not yet have gained citizenship.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Anybody physically, if they cross the border illegally, would then be given a home that meets their needs, that they can afford. Is that correct? If they cross illegally, they technically can't work, so they would get a home for free that meets their needs.

7:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Mr. Schmale, in all honesty, that was not our intention in setting our targets.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

You're saying “All people...living in Canada”. That means everyone.

7:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

That's correct.