Human Resources Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number six of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23, 2020. The proceedings are being made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

We have with us this evening an experienced group of parliamentarians and witnesses, so I'm going to spare you all of the repetitive detail. I'll just remind you that when you're speaking, your mike should be open, and when you're not, it should be closed. Please address all comments through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) and the order of reference of Wednesday, September 30, 2020, the committee will continue its consideration of the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2021, and pursuant to Standing Order 81(5) and the order of reference of Thursday, October 22, 2020, the committee will now also consider the supplementary estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2021.

I will now call vote 1b under Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which will permit general discussion of the supplementary estimates (B) and the questioning of witnesses.

It's my pleasure to welcome our witnesses, the Honourable Filomena Tassi, Minister of Labour. From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Gary Robertson, acting deputy minister, labour program; Anthony Giles, assistant deputy minister, labour program, policy, dispute resolution and international affairs directorate; Brenda Baxter, acting assistant deputy minister, labour program, compliance, operations and program development directorate; and Mark Perlman, chief financial officer and senior assistant deputy minister.

Madam Minister, you have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Good evening to you, to members of the committee and to the officials who are joining us this evening. Thank you for inviting me to be with you.

I'm thrilled to join you virtually from the traditional territory of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinabe peoples within the treaty covered by the Upper Canada treaties, as well as the Dish With One Spoon wampum agreement, to discuss the main estimates and supplementary estimates (B) for Employment and Social Development Canada’s labour program.

This year, the department's main estimates present a total of $68.6 billion in planned budgetary expenditures to carry out its mandate during the 2020–21 fiscal year. More than 94% of this amount will directly benefit Canadians through the department’s programs, services and initiatives. We are proud of the work we do to help Canadians build better lives for themselves and their families, and to be resilient in facing the challenges.

The Government of Canada took a number of extraordinary but necessary steps to protect and support Canadian workers and businesses during the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. To make sure that employees in federally regulated workplaces would be able to take time off work to deal with situations related to COVID-19, like school closures and self-isolation, the government introduced a new job-protected leave under the Canada Labour Code. We also waived medical certificate requirements to access certain existing leave.

In addition, the government took action to protect the employment of employees in the federally regulated private sector. New measures gave employers more time to recall employees who were temporarily laid off due to the pandemic. This gives workers a better chance of staying connected with their organization, and puts employers in a better position to restart, or start growing their business, as we transition out of the pandemic. This is a big part of building back better.

As well, the government temporarily extended the eligible wages period for the wage earner protection program by up to six months. We did so to ensure that any delays in insolvency proceedings, due to the pandemic, did not harm, hurt or compromise the worker's eligibility for that program. Moreover, throughout the pandemic, we have been reminding employers of the importance of having an evergreen hazard prevention plan.

That leads me to my portfolio’s supplementary estimates (B). The department is requesting $0.4 million related to supporting business resumption for federally regulated employers.

The COVID-19 pandemic has created challenges on many fronts for workers and employers in Canada. An effective business resumption requires focused occupational health and safety efforts, including addressing mental health. That’s why the labour program will increase proactive occupational health and safety activities, outreach and guidance, as well as enhance technical and mental health expertise to support business resumption in the federally regulated sector.

The government recently announced that the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety will receive $2.5 million over two years to continue the excellent work it has been doing to provide COVID-19 resources to the workplaces. This funding is part of the coordinated efforts by federal, provincial and territorial governments, public health authorities and CCOHS to ensure that businesses have the necessary tools to protect their employees.

One of the key pieces moving forward is ensuring workplaces are both safe and equitable. That is why we are implementing the Pay Equity Act, which introduces a proactive pay equity regime that will ensure that people working in federally regulated workplaces receive equal pay for work of equal value.

This unlocks people's productivity, creativity and enthusiasm, because they know they are being paid justly. Quite frankly, we have told our children that women and men are co-equals. It's high time that our legislation indicated that we practice what we preach. In fact, I am sure future generations will find it bizarre that this debate was ever had.

We are also raising awareness of wage gaps that affect women, indigenous people, people with disabilities and visible minorities in the federally regulated workplaces through new pay transparency measures.

As you know, we passed legislation to help prevent violence and harassment in the workplace. We will soon move forward with implementation of this legislation and regulations, which will come into force on January 1, 2021.

Workplaces are evolving even faster now due to the pandemic. Mental health is a key element of occupational health and safety. That's why we will consult and work with unions, workers, employers and experts to further improve support for mental health of workers.

Mr. Chair, these are just some of the actions we are taking. There's no doubt that the financial resources requested under these main estimates and supplementary estimates (B) will enable us to continue this work. These efforts we are making, which connect things we are already doing with our direct response to the COVID-19 pandemic, are all part of our government's plan to build back better for all Canadians.

I will now be pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will start with Mr. Kent for the Conservatives.

You have the floor, sir, for six minutes.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and thanks to your officials for attending this evening's sitting.

As you mentioned, along with the extraordinary steps taken for Employment and Social Development Canada's labour program, several of the COVID emergency support programs have required harmonization with provincial and territorial labour laws and codes. Have the provinces essentially given you, the federal government, carte blanche in terms of these programs and the new programs as they evolve?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

The collaboration piece is extremely important. At the very beginning of this, I convened a meeting with my provincial and territorial partners, as I have with the unions and labour and industry, in order to work together. As a result of those meetings, there was an opportunity for people to express their concerns. One of the main issues that came through in those meetings was the concern with respect to standards or guidance to keep workers safe.

My number one priority as Minister of Labour has been occupational health and safety. In that regard, we reached out to the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety. The provinces and territories were very happy about that, because it enabled a resource to provide guidance with respect to moving forward. They did sector-specific tipsheets, an information-sharing portal, e-learning resources and the like in order to ensure that this was available to provinces and territories in all of the sectors that would help keep workers safe.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Speed was obviously of the essence. Many of these programs in normal times would have taken months, perhaps even years, to develop. Can you share with us any of the tougher decisions you had to achieve or some of the differences that had to be resolved early on? I know that, in the rush, some gaps appeared and some things had to be corrected. We had special sessions to catch up. How smoothly has this harmonization gone?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Well, MP Kent, I would say that I have been very impressed with the level of collaboration. People came together in the spirit of really wanting to work together to protect workers and ensure their health and safety across the board. I've been in this portfolio for a year. To see that level of collaboration was absolutely fantastic.

I want to really commend CCOHS, because in record time their team turned those sector-specific tipsheets around. I know they were working around the clock. That transition was smooth. I think the idea was that we needed to have those in place as a guide, so that was important. The other area, of course, was the mental health piece, which was also something that was shared as an area of concern. Supporting workers in occupational health and safety also includes mental health, in all of our minds.

I would say the level of collaboration has been absolutely fantastic.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Okay.

There was obviously no time for anyone on the federal side to meaningfully liaise with the provinces when Bill C-2 became Bill C-4, rewritten at the eleventh hour in September as a result of the confidence vote concessions to the NDP, which included the two-week paid sick leave. I've heard concern in recent weeks from some Ontario small businesses that the paid leave provisions are so broad, they fear—they haven't yet experienced it, or at least no one's told me they have—possible future unwarranted absenteeism.

Have the provinces accepted specifically the two-week paid sick leave, which overrides some provincial private sector sick leave provisions, or are you leaving provinces to decide whether or not it applies to the private sector?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I have not been the lead on that particular part of the file. I would say that in discussions with provinces and territories, it was clear that some provinces more than others were really advocating for this 10-day paid sick leave provision. Everyone agreed that we did not want workers going to work if they felt sick. That would put people in a position wherein trying to contain this would be very difficult. Everyone agreed with the principle that if someone felt sick, we wanted them to have the opportunity to stay home.

That was part of the $19-billion transfer that we would make to the provinces and territories. With respect to the actual terms, I believe it was the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance who was the lead on that, together with Minister Qualtrough.

Specifically, we agreed in principle with the idea and wanted to support workers and give them the ability to stay home. We didn't want them to have to think that if they did stay home, they wouldn't be able to pay their bills or put food on the table.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

How's my time, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You have about 15 seconds, not enough for a question and an answer. Thank you very much.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I'll release it, then. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kent.

Next we have Mr. Long, please, for six minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good evening, Minister. It's great to see you. I harken back to our days when we sat together on HUMA.

I am obviously coming to you from the beautiful riding of Saint John—Rothesay, located on the unceded territory of the Wolastoqey peoples.

Minister, you know my riding and you know the strong labour component to the riding. I wanted to touch base, talk to you a little bit about pay equity and ask you some questions on that. We've seen over the last nine months the consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic. It's been more severe, obviously, for some Canadians than others. In fact, the pandemic has highlighted a variety of systemic inequalities that need to be addressed.

Minister, you know my riding and the wonderful labour leaders in it, like Darlene Bembridge, Ciara Vanderbeck, Angela Campbell and Maureen O'Hearon-Lang, from the Public Service Alliance; Erin Howell Sharpe, whom you've met, from Unifor; and Tammy Nadeau and Sharon Teare from CUPE. Obviously we work with them daily and hand in hand, but when it comes to equal pay for equal value, according to recent data, women earn 89 cents for every dollar earned by men. In 2018, our government put forward and Parliament adopted a revised Pay Equity Act. Recently the draft regulations were released and consultations will run until January 13, 2021.

Minister, can you tell the committee what these regulations will mean for Canadians when they come into force?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thanks, MP Long. It's nice to see you virtually. I do remember the days on HUMA, and they were good days.

In my view, this is transformational legislation because it's not just about giving men and women equal pay for doing the same job. This is about giving women equal pay for work of equal value. That's the transformational piece. We know that when women can count on equal pay for work of equal value, there's not only a moral imperative. It's not only the right thing to do, but it's also the smart thing to do. Our economy is going to grow stronger.

We have been moving forward with this. We think it's very important. We have appointed the first pay equity commissioner, Karen Jensen, and she and her team are working now on materials and resources for employers, because we want to make this transition an easy one. She and her team are working very hard. I've had a couple of conversations with her, and then, as you have said, on November 13, the regulations were published in the Canada Gazette, part I. There is a 60-day consultation period now and it's really important that we hear from stakeholders. We don't want to just get this through fast. We want to do it the right way, so there is a 60-day consultation period. With the feedback we get after the consultation period, we will be moving forward and putting it in the Canada Gazette, part II, with, hopefully, a coming-into-force date later in 2021.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thanks for that.

Minister, obviously I appreciate the response and I agree with you that it's important to move forward with pay equity. However, there are detractors who will want to know why you are pursuing implementation of the Pay Equity Act now, given that our economy is still working to recover from the pandemic.

What are the advantages, Minister, of moving forward now?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I appreciate the question and the concerns that some are raising, but I think it's really important to take a look at what we are doing here.

As I have said, it's not just the right thing to do; there is a moral imperative to do this. As I said in my opening remarks, women should be receiving equal pay when they are doing work of equal value, but the second part is the economic benefit, and the economic benefits have proven themselves.

Over the last 40 years the greater participation of women in the workforce has resulted in about one-third of Canada's economic growth, and there are estimates that Canada could add $150 billion in the next decade by taking steps towards getting more women into the workforce.

This is something that I think is a priority. I'm happy it's a priority for the government. We're going to continue. We know this is going to benefit all Canadians. I'm very confident that Karen Jensen, as the commissioner, is going to do a fantastic job. We look forward to bringing this in fact into fruition.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

Minister, this is my last question. In addition to bringing into force pay equity measures, you're moving forward also with pay transparency measures. I understand making this data publicly available will help identify the wage gap experienced by women, indigenous persons, persons with disabilities and visible minorities in federally regulated workplaces. These are clearly important measures given many of the inequalities that have been highlighted during the pandemic.

Can you explain quickly what the benefits are of these measures?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Absolutely.

We're committed to reducing the gender wage gap, and this is going to do that. The result of this is going to be that pay is going to be transparent for the four groups that are subject to this—women, indigenous peoples, persons with disabilities and visible minorities—and this is going to provide Canadians with a user-friendly availability to see where the gaps are. Then, of course, the result is going to be that the employers are going to respond to those gaps by making efforts to correct them.

This is another measure that we think is important in moving forward. Getting rid of that wage gap is going to encourage women and the other groups to continue in the workforce, and we want to do that because we want everyone to have an equal opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mr. Long.

It is now Ms. Chabot's turn for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, we are pleased to have you here. I hope you are doing well.

I wanted to ask you some questions related to pay equity, but I will come back to that.

My first question is this. Your first mandate letter, after the election, called for a minimum wage of $15 per hour for people working in the federally regulated sector. The crisis revealed that the guardian angels or essential workers we heard so much about were, for the most part, the lowest-paid workers. The mandate you had makes so much sense.

In the main estimates, money was to be allocated to implement this amendment to the Labour Code.

Where are you in the process of increasing the minimum wage to $15 an hour?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Chabot.

It's very nice to see you. Thank you for the important question.

As you can appreciate, my focus, of course, has been on occupational health and safety, ensuring that workers are kept safe. Of course, the pandemic has presented a lot of challenges, but there are other commitments in my mandate letter. I think COVID-19 has absolutely demonstrated the importance of our moving forward with the $15 federal minimum wage.

This was a commitment we made during the campaign, again then reaffirmed in my mandate letter, and we want to make sure that we get this right. I agree with you absolutely that we have a lot of workers who are packing our groceries, stocking shelves and keeping us safe during this time, and although the federal minimum wage would apply to federally regulated workers, this is an opportunity to show leadership. I am committed to maintaining this as a priority as we move forward.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

I have a question for you on workplace equity.

In the main estimates, there's a grant of about $2.3 million for the labour funding program. As we understand it, the program is designed for projects related to occupational health and safety and workplace equity, and “equity” here means “access to employment”.

Can you tell us which project deals with equity for women in employment, not in terms of wages?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Just for clarification, are you talking about the $2.5 million for the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety? Is that the fund you're referring to?

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

No, Madam Minister, I am talking about the $2.3 million for the labour funding program. This program is designed to provide financial assistance to organizations to carry out projects related to labour relations, occupational health and safety and workplace equity. I think the budget includes health and safety, and it also has a component on employment equity in the workplace.