Human Resources Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Ms. Chabot, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello, everyone.

Hello, Mr. Cormier. We completely understand why you are participating in the meeting virtually and we forgive you, especially if there is an emergency in your region. As we know, seasonal industries play a very important role in the economy of your region. Seasonal workers would very much like to make their demands heard regarding the low incomes they earn because of an employment insurance program that is completely outdated in today's world. On their behalf, thank you for working on that.

Mr. Cormier, I listened to what you said about the importance of establishing a food program in schools to support children, and about the benefits of a program like this for their learning. I think we are all going to agree, essentially. As well, I am sure the witnesses are going to say the same thing.

However, I wonder about the fact that you are talking about school, and our schools. Do you acknowledge that education is under the exclusive jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, education is under exclusive provincial jurisdiction. I am pleased to see that for several years the Quebec government has had school food programs in place. If I am not mistaken, it is the Breakfast Club that has been doing extraordinary work for many years in your province. I would have liked my province, New Brunswick, to do the same thing.

We want to work with the provinces and territories, including Quebec, to set up a program like that. If Quebec has other opinions on the subject, we will be at the table and we will certainly listen to it, as we have done for other programs.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Cormier, it is more than listening and working together.

Quebec does more than support two big not-for-profit organizations. Yes, there is the Breakfast Club, but there is also La Cantine pour tous. Quebec's ministère de l'Éducation dedicates public funding to school food programs by supporting those two big organizations, but also supports school services centres, which distribute the food in the schools.

I know it could work better in Manitoba, and I regret that it is not working so well in New Brunswick. That is not the question, however. If you acknowledge that education is under the exclusive jurisdiction of Quebec and the other provinces, why did you not provide a right to withdraw, in your bill, with full, unconditional compensation for provinces that are already investing in programs like this? The federal government has done that in the past for implementing its universal early learning child care program. Quebec has had this kind of program, which falls exclusively under the heading of education, for 25 years. Why did you not provide a comparable right in your bill?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

The bill states that we will hold negotiations and discussions with the provinces and territories. We all agree that education falls under the jurisdiction of the provinces and territories, but that does not mean that because of that, we cannot work on this issue, in partnership with Quebec or with the other provinces.

As I said in my remarks, it does not call for equal funding to the provinces or territories. Discussions will certainly be held with the Government of Quebec to see what it wants to do, as was the case for the child care program.

Once again, we should be looking further ahead. We have to keep in mind that this is a program to help students. If Quebec already has a program in place that is sufficient and cannot be improved, who knows? Maybe the federal government will use the example of Quebec to improve the national framework or the program itself in Canada. We want to work with the Government of Quebec. If there are adjustments to be made, we will make them, as we have done with other universal programs we have created in Canada.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Federal intrusions into the provinces' exclusive fields of jurisdiction is actually a problematic trend. We know this does not bother you. You have said that it made no difference to people.

What is the connection between your bill and the announcement of $1 billion over five years, or $200 million a year, in the last budget?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

My bill was introduced well before the budget announcement. As you know, our government has been promising a program of this kind since 2001. I am glad that my bill may have provided a stimulus for various groups that were calling for a program like this for years. I am also glad that my government recognizes that we need to have a program like this.

My bill is about a framework. Even though money was announced in the budget, there has to be a framework for establishing a school food program. We will have to monitor how a program like that develops, but first we have to define its bases. We have to know how this kind of program is going to work. We have a lot of things to discuss with groups that are going to be involved in a program like this. What kind of food is going to be provided for students? How will farmers be able to participate in the program? There is a whole host of questions we will have to answer.

I think that in this way—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier and Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Gazan, you have six minutes, please.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

It's nice to be in committee today to talk about what I feel is a really important program. I know that the government, with pressure from the NDP, has introduced a school food program, which was long overdue.

One of the things I've found peculiar since this whole debate began is there are discussions about food insecurity being a new phenomenon. I've mentioned many times in the House that I'm a long-time educator. In fact, when I finished high school, one of my first jobs was as an early childhood educator.

Under consecutive Conservative and Liberal governments, kids have been going to early childhood education and school hungry. When I became a teacher, I actually had my own food program that I paid for out-of-pocket because kids were coming to school hungry under the Conservative federal government.

What motivated you to introduce this bill? I know that it has a framework. With the food program now in the budget, is it still a relevant bill?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her question. I also thank her for her speech at the second reading of my bill.

I believe we need to create a framework like this. The government has announced funds for a school food program, and those funds will be distributed to the provinces and territories to give students more help. But we need a framework. We have to determine how to put the program in place from one end of Canada to the other. We have to talk to various people, including the provinces and territories. We are also going to have to talk to experts in nutrition to find out what kinds of meals to provide, and talk to farmers to figure out how they can participate in a program like this. There will also be a lot of work to do to determine how the schools and infrastructure are going to administer the program.

So I think we need a bill in order to look more broadly at this important program that is to be implemented everywhere in Canada.

I want to thank my colleague again for supporting my bill.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Building on that, I know there's an affordability crisis. Our party has been pushing for an excess profit tax on big grocery chains that are gouging families who are trying to feed their kids. I don't think it's one or the other.

Do you think that, even with inflation and the fact that grocery chains are gouging people across Canada, we still would need a school food program? I ask that question because that seems to be the rhetoric.

Even prior to the inflation crisis—as I said, I was a long-time educator—a lot of kids were coming to school hungry. They could not learn and had behavioural issues as a result. They couldn't concentrate. That's why I paid out-of-pocket.

Even with the inflation crisis and even if things went back closer to the old normal—although I don't think anything will—do you think we still would need a breakfast program?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Yes, I think we will still need a breakfast program or a food program in schools.

As I said earlier, in 1981, I was in the first grade. I think you know that there was no price on pollution back then. Maybe life was a bit easier for some families, but on certain days, my friends still didn't have anything to eat in their lunch boxes.

There are a lot of reasons families sometimes cannot put food in their kids' lunch boxes. Maybe it's because they don't have any money. Maybe it's because something happened at home in the morning or maybe it's because of a mental health issue.

Even if the price of food doesn't go up like that, of course I will want to have a school food program. We live in one of the only countries that doesn't have a school food program. It's time that Canada stepped up and put some kind of program in place.

I'm glad that my government.... Again, I thank the NDP for supporting a school food program. It's time to make sure our children are successful in life.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have to say that I find it bizarre that people would vote against kids getting food in the classroom. I find it shocking, in fact, that there's such an aggressive response to feeding kids in schools, especially because we know that it's been an ongoing problem, as you shared.

I want to thank you for your work and thank you for putting your framework forward.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to Mrs. Gray for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

Through you, Mr. Chair, Mr. Cormier, the first line of your legislation in the preamble reads, “Whereas too many families in Canada cannot reliably obtain enough nutritious food”.

Based on this, would you agree that the cost of healthy, nutritious food has increased to the point where it's out of reach for many families?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I thank the member for her question.

As I said, we are currently facing enormous pressure, not just in Canada, but all around the world, when it comes to rising prices more or less everywhere. However, regardless of the challenges we are facing right now, we cannot simply say that we are not going to help children in school, because there are effects—

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

In rural communities like yours, would you agree that costs are often higher for things like fuel and nutritious food?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Once again, it depends on certain sectors. We have goods and services that are much less expensive than in other regions, such as Toronto and Montreal, for example. It is false to say that everything is more expensive in our rural areas.

Things may be more expensive in certain sectors of our economy because we are in a more remote region. However, it is ultimately, here again, a question of helping schoolchildren and families by putting a program like this one in place. Even if—

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you. I want to move on to my next question here. Thank you very much.

Would you agree that the carbon tax is adding to the cost of food?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

All studies to date show that this is not the case. The Conservatives' main argument is that putting a price on pollution raises the cost of living in all regions of our country, and that is false. Unfortunately, the Conservatives do not want to admit it.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you. It was a yes or no question. Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

You signed a press release on September 28, 2023, with your Liberal colleagues, Mr. Long, who's on this committee, and Mr. Arseneault, criticizing the imposition of your Liberal government's carbon tax on residents in the province where you live, New Brunswick. You said the carbon tax puts the province and its residents at a disadvantage because it does not take into account its strongly rural character.

Mr. Cormier, do you agree that the carbon tax disadvantages rural families by increasing the cost to grow, ship, warehouse and, ultimately, buy food?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

First, I would like to say I am glad to have sent out that press release with my colleagues Wayne Long and René Arseneault.

As I told you, unfortunately, we live in rural regions where public transit or alternative transportation is not as widely available as compared to big cities like Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. We therefore asked for an additional 20% adjustment for people in these rural regions.

All of the experts who saw our press release in which we asked for those adjustments agree with us. Each region in Canada must be treated fairly and equitably. That is exactly what our government has done.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

Based on that, what you were asking for was that the carbon tax be removed because of the high costs—