Human Resources Committee on June 6th, 2024

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks.

I'll follow up that question with this. Up until the release of the national housing strategy, municipal governments and non-profits were basically on their own.

In cities like Hamilton, when the national housing strategy was released, we pursued the same coinvestment funding to repair our 7,000 units. It's not just large municipalities that are facing this issue. The City of Peterborough just a couple of weeks ago had a report in front of their staff. They required $122 million over the next 20 years. Their staff went to their council and said that the only place they're going to find these resources is at the federal level, through the national housing strategy. They emphasized in a report to their council that, again, decades of underfunding have led them to a point where they can no longer afford to pay for these things on the local tax base.

Your organization was left to its own devices for a period of time. How did you manage through those years? Were there any federal supports that you might have accessed between the years of the early 1990s and today?

[Lori-Anne Gagne]

Not from the early 1990s. You are absolutely correct that it has been decades in the making of underfunding for the capital repair reserves. In fact, there was a moratorium put on them for a few years, where we were not allowed to contribute anything towards our replacement reserve or capital repair needs. “Backlog” was a word that was used very frequently—the backlog of housing.

I did mention that Victoria Park was very fortunate. As our federal stock, our oldest stock, came out of their mortgages, we were able to refinance them, repair that building and take any excess funds and put over.

During the period you mentioned, MP Collins, there were various initiatives such as—they all have funny acronyms—SHAIP, SHRRP and SHIP. These were smaller programs that were rolled out to help with energy efficiencies and upgrades of buildings, and I can tell you that we tried to capitalize on all of them—much needed.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

My last question, Lori-Anne, is related to the wait-list that we have. You referenced Hamilton's wait-list. It is growing. The City of Toronto's is over 80,000. I talked about Vancouver at our last meeting, and they're at 18,000.

Many of the programs that we have are there to incentivize new supply. You have a number of projects that are in the works. Can you talk about how valuable those programs are as it relates to providing new supply? Also, what else—I guess from a financial perspective—needs to be done in that regard?

[Lori-Anne Gagne]

Thank you.

Yes, the funding will help. We do need new supply. Previous speakers have spoken about that. We need more housing, but we need more affordable housing, so a firm commitment of the funding that we can rely on, that we can do pro forma and not have to change over a six-year period, would be most helpful.

I do want to applaud one of the most recent initiatives: the rental protection funding that is coming out. That can be used for acquisitions, because building new is very expensive. However, if we can use that funding to purchase existing buildings and convert them to affordables or retain their affordable rents, that will help to increase the supply as well—not the overall supply of rentals but of affordable rentals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses again.

Mr. Castonguay, welcome again. Thank you for accepting our invitation. Your organization is no stranger to speaking to this committee about the vital and thorny issue of housing, although you personally are doing so for the first time.

First, I want to acknowledge your valuable work in our Quebec communities. I've seen it in my own community. I know that your work is vital.

I think that I'll let you finish your remarks. When you stopped earlier, you were talking about social and community housing needs in Quebec. I find that the social and community housing issue is largely absent from our studies. We talk about affordable housing, but we often overlook social housing and the development of non‑profit housing. I'll let you finish your remarks and make further comments on this issue, if you wish to do so.

[André Castonguay]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot. I greatly appreciate it.

I was talking about a national policy. A valuable strategy was implemented, offering a wide range of tools and programs. However, to be truly effective, we also need a national housing policy. That's what we're telling the Quebec government. We've been waiting years for an action plan, but it hasn't been introduced yet. However, even before this action plan, we need a policy. Above all, the right to housing must be recognized. Once this right has been recognized, we'll need a national policy to clearly define all the actions and properly develop social and community housing.

In Quebec, the players involved in social and community housing in general are now looking at new ways to fund the construction of social and community housing and to ensure the long‑term viability of the current stock. We conducted studies in certain European countries that have successfully allocated 20% of their rental stock to social and community housing. We wanted to find out how these countries had managed in recent decades, or even in the past century, to provide enough housing to meet their residents' urgent needs.

Remember, housing is the foundation of well‑being. If you don't have a home, or if it isn't adapted to your needs, you certainly won't be as productive or active as possible. Having a home also empowers people. We're looking at different ways of doing things.

We're told that 3.5 million housing units must be built in Canada, and 680,000 in Quebec. For social and community housing to play a real part in balancing the rental market, we need to double the capacity of the housing stock. Right now, the stock comprises roughly 160,000 units, all types of tenure combined. However, we believe that an additional 173,000 units are needed to meet demand. This would bring us closer to 20% of the rental market. This would significantly help maintain the housing balance and regulate the average rent of affordable housing for people who are somewhat better off.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

That's very interesting. I think we have to stop ignoring the needs and contributions of the community network to social housing. Just look around and it's clear.

Since I have two minutes left, I'll ask you one last question. You applauded the investments in the last budget, which, to be clear, will not flow until 2025. However, the Auditor General sharply criticized the reaching home program. As we know, homelessness can also be traced back to the housing crisis. If Canada wants to achieve its goal of reducing homelessness by 50%, it will have to invest an additional $3.5 billion per year. At the moment, it is barely investing $500 million. What's your opinion on that?

[André Castonguay]

A long-term vision for community social housing development is a must if it is to reach the acceptable percentage of 20%, but we need to take rapid action on homelessness if we want to solve the problem. I don't think $500 million is enough, especially considering that we should actually be investing $3.5 billion in the short term. Frankly, there's a long way to go.

The government should also come up with mechanisms for housing and regulate renovictions, so as to prevent as many people as possible from ending up on the street, unable to find housing they can afford. This is an issue that needs to be tackled on a number of fronts.

Clearly, if we want to fight homelessness, we will have to take action quickly, because the problem is getting worse. Homelessness is on the rise in small towns in Quebec, and I imagine the same is true across Canada, so we need to act quickly on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Castonguay, I'd really like to talk more about the importance of the Réseau québécois des OSBL d'habitation.

According to various figures, under Stephen Harper's Conservative government, we lost 800,000 so-called affordable housing units in Canada. We have lost another 370,000 since the Liberals took over. For every affordable housing unit we build, we're losing 10 or 11 right now, so, despite the massive investments being made, we're going deeper into the hole.

We need to build more truly affordable social, community and co-operative housing, but how do we make sure we don't lose housing along the way? How do we get out of this bottomless hole and hang onto housing that fits people's needs and their budgets over the long term?

[André Castonguay]

In Quebec, when we fund a project, we say that we're building it to last 100 years. Unfortunately, that isn't necessarily what happens, and there are lots of other factors that result in the loss of so-called affordable housing units. One active solution that I think sounds great was implemented in British Columbia. It's the new acquisition fund that the federal government just announced. That's a first step worth considering.

In terms of the longevity of the housing stock, one of the main problems is that, when an organization obtains funding through a government program, it doesn't have access to its capital. I believe that's also the case for organizations that were created not so long ago. No private developer would accept that if they're building rental housing in a lucrative market. That can get some organizations in trouble five or 10 years down the line if there are problems with the construction or the structure of the buildings. I've seen that and experienced it first hand. I haven't always worked at the national level; I've also worked in our regional network. This problem can make it difficult for organizations to remain sustainable, to stay afloat. Sometimes we have to work with the Société d'habitation du Québec to save organizations that should have been viable on their own, and that's hard.

The next issue is the aging housing stock and older organizations that were created under previous programs. It can be hard for them to get funding to renovate their buildings. This is another problem that has a number of causes. Every time we lose a unit, we have to build two new ones if we really want to maintain our housing stock.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Castonguay.

I'm also pleased with the new acquisition fund that was announced in the federal budget. We've been pushing for this for a long time, and we'll push for it to be more front and centre.

By way of comparison, it's as if the federal government put up the money for new public transit projects but contributed nothing to cover operating costs in subsequent years. Those costs would have to be borne by transit authorities. It's a bit like ponying up enough money to break ground and cut a ribbon, but contributing nothing to pay for challenges, renovations and maintenance five or 10 years down the line.

Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie has several housing co-ops, and people have a lot of trouble financing the work that has to be done 20 years later on the roof or the foundation, or for unforeseen things, so as to keep their co-op in good shape and maintain the tenants' quality of life. There's nothing left and there's no one left.

Do you think the federal government should invest more in ensuring the viability of non-market community, co-op and other types of housing?

[André Castonguay]

Yes, we absolutely have to work on that and think about other ways to make those investments. We held a major event in Quebec City just last week to discuss ways to reach the 20% target, which also means keeping our housing stock intact.

Ad hoc investments are fine, but good coordination between the various levels of government would be even better. That alone would greatly improve the situation. The Quebec City-Ottawa relationship isn't always easy. We need to look at the issue differently. How about setting up a permanent fund managed by the community, by organizations representing the three housing types and everyone involved in developing and operating non-profit organizations? That's a solution we could adopt, along with different funding mechanisms that are available in other countries, but not here—

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Castonguay, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm almost out of time.

We've been talking about so-called “affordable” housing. How would you define truly affordable housing?

[André Castonguay]

Affordable housing depends on the income of the person paying the rent. It's as simple as that. The word can mean a lot of things, but it boils down to what a person is able to pay. Roughly speaking, it would be about 30% of their gross income.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Castonguay.

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

We will be pushing our time. We started at 8:16.

I've decided that, if the committee agrees, we'll have one final round of questions with two minutes for each party, beginning with Mrs. Gray.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With my limited time, I'll just run through some questions quickly here.

Mr. Facette of the Canadian Roofing Contractors Association, you talked about labour shortages today. How many workers in the roofing industry would you estimate we are short in Canada?

[Jim Facette]

It's thousands, to be honest with you. It's not just what we need today. It's the ability of our member companies to grow. It's those lost opportunities. For example, we have our immediate past chair out of Saskatoon. He owns a company, and he has about 100 or so people. What's stopping him from growing is not being able to find people.

It's not just the numbers in terms of the gaps we have now. It's the lost opportunities going forward.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

We know that inflation is the highest it has been in 40 years. The Canadian dollar has been consistently low during the nine years of this government, beginning in 2015. Any supplies imported from the U.S.—and there are many in the roofing industry—cost more.

As well, a Statistics Canada roofing industry report in 2023 said, “Costs are through the roof”. Would you agree that costs are through the roof?

[Jim Facette]

Yes, costs have gone through the roof, including those for insurance and for every material they buy. It's gotten much more expensive now than it was, say, even four years ago.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Also, have you seen any of the following: extension of construction timelines, projects being put on hold or cancelled, or housing starts decreasing?

[Jim Facette]

The short answer is yes.