Human Resources Committee on June 6th, 2024

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Do you believe that part of the reason for housing starts being down is the still-high interest rates and the high debt-servicing costs?

[Jim Facette]

Yes. It's not just on housing. There are also the interest rates on commercial development. The money's just not what it was four years ago.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

The Liberal ministers in their 2024 budget state that they will build 3.87 million homes by 2031. We're at about 550,000 homes per year.

Mr. Facette, given what you've said today in outlining increasing labour shortages, costs through the roof, housing starts down and debt servicing still high, are the numbers for the new homes Canadians are being promised by the Liberal government's housing plan realistic?

[Jim Facette]

They're certainly ambitious. At this time we don't see them being attainable.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That was a most efficient use of your time, with good questions.

Mr. Van Bynen, go ahead, for two minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the witnesses' contributions to the discussion this morning.

My questions will be for Ms. Gagne.

First of all, I truly appreciate your enthusiasm, energy and commitment to affordable housing. I'm not sure whether you're aware, but this committee did a study on the impact of financialization of housing. We heard that we are losing affordable housing 11 times faster than we are building it.

One of the concerns is the financialization of housing. One of the recommendations was on design and tax treatment options to ensure that REITs create new affordable housing.

My concern is how much we are losing to REITs. What would you suggest we should do to make sure that's committed to new housing as opposed to being used to purchase up existing stock and gentrifying?

[Lori-Anne Gagne]

Thank you for the question.

I don't know the overall statistics on how many are being lost to REITs. That is certainly one of the reasons we are losing affordability. There are cash-for-keys and renoviction schemes, so that you can move residents out and then increase the rents. Protections against those things would certainly be welcome.

I did mention the acquisition funding. As Mr. Castonguay mentioned, it's new and it will be something we explore as a preservation tactic. We have to stop the bleed. We have to stop losing more than we're developing.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

What incentives are....

In 10 seconds, I'm done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Wrap it up, Mr. Van Bynen. Go ahead.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

What targeted incentives or policy changes would encourage an increase in investment in purpose-built rentals, from your perspective?

[Lori-Anne Gagne]

GST protections, fixed funding and streamlining approval processes at the municipal level would allow us to go forward with some certainty. They are all things that can help us deliver more affordable housing faster.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Castonguay, as you know, one of my Bloc Québécois colleagues did a major tour of Quebec specifically to study the housing crisis. The Bloc Québécois has put forward a few solutions to this crisis. We want to open up federal lands. We want more land and buildings in the federal lands program, and we want those buildings to be used for social and community housing. What are your thoughts on that type of solution?

[André Castonguay]

Absolutely, it's public land. I think that, if communities want to get involved in building social and community housing to meet their members' needs, most of that land should be reserved for those types of housing. That would go a long way toward reaching the 20% target for social and community housing.

By the way, I'm a member of the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association board of directors. The 20% target for social and community housing has been discussed with stakeholders in the other provinces, and the idea is starting to gain traction. We really need a pan-Canadian conversation about it. That input is critical to achieving the target.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

My next question may be similar to the previous one.

We need new housing units. We have a housing stock. There have been federal programs for low-income housing, or low-cost housing, and there are renovation cost per unit thresholds. Would that be a solution to increasing the number of housing units? Should the threshold for these costs then be indexed? I'm asking because it seems to me that there are housing units that could be used but aren't being supported.

[André Castonguay]

In Quebec, I know that there was about $2 billion for low-income housing. I think it's a critical need. Low-income housing meets specific needs.

When costs aren't indexed to the cost of living, you end up with a shortfall. It's like Ms. Gagne's project, which took seven years. Housing units can be lost because of the cost of living. The same goes for renovations, so we absolutely have to index these amounts, and reach—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That's it. Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Gagne, people say that the current housing crisis is down to a lack of supply, so what we need to do is build housing of all kinds. Should it really be any kind of housing? If not, what kind of housing do people really need?

[Lori-Anne Gagne]

Thank you.

Affordable housing is what they need. There is a place, of course, for additional market units, where people can move on and free up some existing stock, but we have a shortage of supply and a severe shortage of affordability. We don't need to build hundreds and hundreds of 6,000-square-foot homes that people cannot afford now. We need rents that are affordable. For the last five years, Victoria Park has paid not just minimum wage but a living wage for our lowest positions, yet we have had more of our staff apply and are now on waiting lists to try to get affordable housing.

This is for our workers. It's for the immigrants we need to bring in and for the roofers we need. We need affordable housing stock.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Gagne.

Mr. Castonguay talked about a non-market housing target of 20%. Do you agree with that 20% target?

[Lori-Anne Gagne]

As I said, we are at 3% right now. Yes, I would share that goal. We should be up between 15% and 20%.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

Committee members, I have an update. We have reached out to Starlight Investments. I do have some options, but until we get a confirmation from Starlight, I cannot confirm anything. I will update you as soon as I can.

With that, I want to thank the witnesses for appearing today and giving testimony on this important study.

We have reached the end of our time. With that, is it the will of the committee to adjourn?

[Some hon. member]

Agreed.