Evidence of meeting #125 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accessibility.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Collins. Your time is up.
Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here. I'd also like to thank them for the work they do, particularly at the Office of the Auditor General. We know that all the studies they provide are important for our work and our role as parliamentarians.
Thank you as well, Ms. Cadieux.
Ms. Cadieux, you've been in your position for a short time, and you have a big mandate. In the first paragraph of the executive summary of your first report of 2023, you say, “Too often, throughout history, people with disabilities have carried the load of advocating for their own inclusion and equal participation in society.” You also said was that “fundamentally changing the culture around disability” was necessary.
Do you think there's been any progress on the culture of change issue?
Do disability groups continue to advocate on issues as fundamental as inclusion in the areas of employment, transportation, accessibility and housing?
What is your analysis of the progress of the culture towards these people?
Chief Accessibility Officer, Office of the Chief Accessibility Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development
There has been a lot of progress. As absolutely frustrated as I am at the pace of change, as a person with a disability, we have seen and are seeing a change in the culture.
The fact that accessibility is now a conversation and a track of discussions at conferences about any number of things—airports, technology and what have you—shows that we're thinking about it proactively now in many more situations than ever before. That speaks to a shift in culture.
The fact is that, when I go to a restaurant and there isn't an accessible washroom, it's not me who says something. It's the person standing in line behind me who says, “This isn't acceptable. What are you going to do about it?” The fact that it's on people's minds and people feel willing to talk about it is a shift in culture.
However, we have a long way to go. We still see examples on a daily basis where that culture isn't shifting and where the ableist bias we all often carry—including people with disabilities—shows itself in decision-making, so that people with disabilities still end up being seen as less or other, and that charitable sort of decision-making raises its head. We're not there.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Ms. Cadieux.
In your report, you talk a lot about the lack of data to be collected in order to take action, and I understand that.
Do you have any solutions to this problem? I think we need to take action.
Is it a barrier or a barrier to not having the data to be able to act? I don't think it is, but how could this data availability problem be improved?
Chief Accessibility Officer, Office of the Chief Accessibility Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development
I think there is movement, again, in the right direction here. ESDC and Stats Canada have moved on a data strategy, and that's important. It's important when we're collecting national data that we make sure we break out and collect data about disability and the disability experience in these contexts, because it will give us that information.
When we talk about employment, we've not seen the dial move very far in a very long time. When we look at data, quite often we'll ask how many people are hired or working, but are we asking the right questions? Are they staying? Are they being promoted? We need deeper data. I would say that's the challenge.
It's an ongoing challenge, and it's a challenge we see not just in the government or in the federal sector. When I'm talking to corporations and others, they feel the same way about the data in their organizations.
We can do better. We just have to—
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
How do we solve that problem? Do you have any ideas on how to do that?
Chief Accessibility Officer, Office of the Chief Accessibility Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development
If we're talking about data as the problem, the solution is to make a decision to collect data on disability in all circumstances when data is being collected.
Liberal
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Ms. Cadieux, you talked about role models. Could you give us some comparisons with what is being done elsewhere?
You mentioned the United States. Sometimes we think of them as a model, at least in terms of transportation, accessibility and mobility. Maybe we're wrong. Are there any models or best practices we could learn from? If you have any, I'd like you to provide them.
Chief Accessibility Officer, Office of the Chief Accessibility Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development
It's yes and no. The reality is that no country or organization anywhere is getting everything right or everything wrong.
I'm talking to folks in different countries. The U.K., for example, has done a lot of work on the employment side. That is work we can look to and model—and, in fact, we are. The Presidents Group out of British Columbia is modelling some of that work, and it's having an impact.
When I talk—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Cadieux. You can carry on that train of thought with another question.
Ms. Zarrillo, you have the floor for six minutes.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you so much, Chair.
I appreciate so much the testimony today and, from the CAO, the comments about the cultural change. I know that when I speak to the disability community they talk about the additional barriers that happen in spaces of authority like the one we're in today.
As part of the top seven priority areas in the Accessible Canada Act, it actually doesn't talk about this cultural change and this attitudinal barrier. I'm going to take the rest of my six minutes in silence in this committee in protest, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Well, Ms. Zarrillo, I can only conduct the meeting according to the rules that were adopted by the committee. You have the option to question any of the witnesses.
If not, I have to move to the next questioner who will participate.
NDP
NDP
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
For six minutes, I have the floor, and it's my decision how I want to use those six minutes. I can use it by talking or questioning. I'm choosing to do it in silence.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Chair, is it your position, then, that you're going to silence my voice here around the table today, and your choice, not mine?
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Are you going to assert your authority over my privilege in this committee, Mr. Chair?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Ms. Zarrillo, you have the option to participate in the meeting as you choose. It's—