Human Resources Committee on April 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses who are taking part in our study of the labour shortage. Their testimony is very helpful.

This first round of questions will certainly not be enough.

My question is for Mr. Michaud.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Michaud. I would also like to thank you for telling us about your experience. Your company's primary mission is to support businesses in connection with recruiting workers.

The question I'd like to ask you is this. In concrete terms, how can we reform the Temporary Foreign Worker Program?

There are two things that concern me. Since we began this study, a number of industries have told us about the difficulties they encounter in connection with the program. They run into all sorts of pitfalls, including wait times. I would say that we see the same thing in our constituencies. For several years, a number of companies and businesses have been calling our constituency offices because they are having trouble getting answers to their requests.

You talked about poaching. Because of differences with how the no-name LFIAs work and the other forms, temporary foreign workers can get poached.

My question is general. If we had to reform the system tomorrow, what would be the major issues we would have to tackle, knowing that there are some things that are unique to Quebec, of course?

Thank you.

[Régis Michaud]

Thank you for your question.

First, I think that in order to help employers, we definitely have to cut the wait times in immigration cases. When employers decide to recruit internationally, it is to meet immediate needs. So we have to find a way to increase, to speed up the process, to support our employers.

We need to think about a way of somehow accrediting our employers. The first international recruiting effort might be a bit longer and more thorough, but accreditation would allow employers to be more autonomous when it comes to international recruiting, and that would enable them to move forward faster. That might be done by a telephone call or videoconference, or an office closer to the employer could accredit it at the start.

Second, we have to encourage keeping people in the jobs. Several years ago, it was harder to change employers. You had to show that the employer was not in compliance and was treating its employees badly. I think that is a good thing and we need to encourage reporting. We also need to make foreign workers autonomous and I understand that they can be more vulnerable.

However, I think it's important that an employer or a company that decides to recruit internationally be better protected too, because these companies do their planning for a two- or three-year period. At present, with social media, our workers are approached by companies in other provinces who already have no-name LMIAs. In a week, the worker can change companies and simply start working.

If we really want to help our businesses, we have to cut wait times and protect against workers rushing to leave.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

We are often asked about limiting the proportion of low-paid positions in the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, which is set at ten per cent. Under an agreement between the governments of Canada and Quebec, that limit is set at 20 per cent in certain sectors in Quebec.

I don't really know how things are done elsewhere, but some people are asking for that percentage to be raised, because some companies believe the situation is not going to resolve itself overnight. Even if they prefer permanent residence in the long term, some companies say their needs are urgent because of the labour shortage and are asking for that percentage to be increased and for work permits to be open.

What do you think about this?

[Régis Michaud]

I think open permits will create poaching similar to what already exists and foreign workers are going to want to walk away. What is important is that the regions are sometimes less well served by immigration and by international recruiting. I firmly believe in permanent residence and long-term solutions. We are proposing that a foreign worker who comes to a [Technical difficulty—Editor] region, but facilitate his wife's and children's integration, to repopulate those regions and avoid everyone heading to the major centres.

Outside Quebec, the limit is ten per cent for temporary foreign workers in low-paid positions. For many companies, that is insufficient. Here again, we have to give companies a bit more autonomy, and I agree with Mr. Strickland and Mr. Ellerker that unions have to participate more in the decision-making, which has to be handled by both parties.

That limit doesn't work today. We also have to talk about the length of the permits, and it's no longer appropriate to give one- or two-year work permits. Because of the demographic curve on the horizon, everyone is aware that for the next ten years, we are going to need temporary foreign workers. We need to increase the length of the permits and make it easier to retain these workers.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

In your practice, have you observed that some industries use temporary foreign workers more often? Have you observed an increase in the demand for temporary foreign workers in specific sectors?

[Régis Michaud]

I would say that this is the case in all sectors in Quebec. All sectors are affected, whether it be the lumber industry, the construction industry, the manufacturing industry, or fast food.

In the other provinces, we're talking about somewhat more specialized occupations. The construction and manufacturing industries are affected, but it concerns somewhat more specialized occupations, and not operator positions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Zarillo, you have the floor for the next six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony today and I want to start with Mr. Sauvé. I thank him for talking about healthy work-life balance. This is an area I'd like to dig into just a little bit, because workers and their conditions—their life conditions and their housing conditions—are all very important, and I wonder if it's time that we modernize how we support workers.

I want to ask Mr. Sauvé about root causes of retention and recruitment. Previously in this study we've heard a lot from the care economy and we know that work is very gendered. Policing has also traditionally been very gendered. I just want to get a feel for the kinds of working conditions that police need these days to have a healthy work-life balance and what the federal government could do.

You mentioned recognizing that as a first step, but what are other things we could do to support police retention and recruitment?

[Brian Sauvé]

Thank you for the question. It's actually a very good place to start a big discussion.

A lot has been done in the last decade with respect to police and studying work-life balance and the impacts of overburdening. I think recognition through CIMVHR and CIPSRT and the studies that have been ongoing through those federal organizations that are supported research organizations is great.

The visibility of Veterans Affairs needs to be increased. From the perspective of the RCMP, obviously there's been some good work done there that needs to continue. As far as work-life balance goes, I think there needs to be a broader understanding about the variety of work that police officers do in Canada—whether it's the Sûreté du Québec, which operates in isolated posts just as the OPP does, just as the RCMP does—and an acceptance or an acknowledgement that in a lot of cases the RCMP is the only representative of the federal government in many communities across Canada. There are no social services. There are no nurses. There are no health stations. Sometimes Canada Post isn't even there in person on a regular basis.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much. I think that goes to that idea of understanding the modernization of the realities of today's world. As you said, they're taking on a lot more.

To Mr. Strickland from the trade unions, Mr. Sauvé mentioned it. It's been mentioned over and over again by witnesses from the care economy, who are overburdened. I think about the trades and I think about the long hours they're working.

Here in B.C., as I'm sure you've heard, there are a lot of overdoses and a lot of addiction within the trades because they're working so hard; they're getting injured, and they don't necessarily have access to a family doctor or easy access to care for healing injuries. I just wonder if you could share a little bit about what the federal government might be able to do to respond with respect to the working conditions these people need to be happy and healthy and to have work-life balance.

[Sean Strickland]

Certainly, opioid use and opioid addiction are quite prevalent within the construction trades. I think the two trades with the highest incidence are transportation—with folks working hard and doing lots of driving across the country to keep our supply chain going—and construction.

Given the nature of work in construction, there are a few conditions that have created this situation. I think one is the kind of macho culture. I think the other is the nature of the work. It's hard, physically demanding work and when you're a construction worker it's not like you're—with respect—a public service worker. If you don't go to work, you don't get paid. If you get injured, have a slight injury and take some time off for rehabilitation, you're not getting paid. Often you'll come back to work sooner, and in order to deal with that pain you'll be prescribed an opioid and then that sometimes leads to a downward spiral, as a result of which many of our workers experience addiction.

It's been particularly hard on our workforce during the pandemic as well. Unfortunately, during the pandemic, within our ranks there have been a few suicides related to opioid addiction. This is an issue. We've had some conversations with Health Canada. We did some information sharing about 18 months ago. We're in further discussions and we're trying to move away from education through typical forms of printed materials and are looking at apps we can use to push notifications and alert folks to the dangers of opioid use and to get them to try to find different ways to deal with their pain more holistically.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Strickland.

I have a follow-up question on what you mentioned, that if they're not at work, they're not getting paid. I see this in B.C. a lot. That's why they're working these long hours and working through pain.

Is there anything that could be done on the federal government's side like employment insurance or sick days? What could be done on the federal side to support them so that they can take the rest they need?

[Sean Strickland]

That's a really good question. I know there has been some recent legislation around 10 paid sick days. I don't know how that would apply in the construction industry, but certainly, if there was more latitude around [Technical difficulty—Editor] and the impact it would have on you if you weren't able to get paid because you had to take time off.

The challenge still is that employment insurance doesn't pay nearly what going to work would pay, so it wouldn't be much of an incentive. There are some things we need to do to work with that.

Another thing is the medical use of marijuana. I sat on a health and welfare trust fund where we were able to include medical marijuana as an expense that the plan would cover. [Technical difficulty—Editor] use went up like 60%, and opioid prescriptions went down by 80%. There are those things that I think need to be looked at as well.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I have one last question for you, Mr. Strickland, around retirement. We heard one of your testimonies—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Your time has gone by, I'm sorry.

Now we go to Mr. Liepert for five minutes.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

Mr. Sauvé, I'd like to explore something because, in not atypical fashion, the large majority of the witnesses who appear before the committees, all committees of Parliament, inevitably want more money. As you can probably appreciate, the financial situation of the federal government today is pretty dire to begin with, let alone huge new expenditures for every organization that comes before this committee.

I think in a lot of cases there needs to be a hard look at the structure of how services are provided today in the country. Certainly health care is in need of that.

Do you have any thoughts on the structure of the policing services in the country today? Do we have too many incidents when police are attending when maybe, as an example, a family counsellor or something...? I'm thinking of domestic abuse situations.

Are there ways that we could look at solving some of these worker shortage problems other than money?

[Brian Sauvé]

That's an excellent question, and I agree. If you go back to early 2020, there was broad public discussion around de-funding or de-tasking the police, which really, from our perspective, has been from Canadians who are asking for a re-funding of other social programs because they have been lacking in prior decades.

I think there's a really good discussion happening now, whether it be through the Halifax regional municipality or the standing committee on public safety that released its report last year. We appeared before them, and we did make recommendations based on how the average Canadian wants their social safety net to look. Do we as Canadians need to look at an increase in health care spending for mental health issues? Do we need to look at an increase in first response emergency medical services?

In a lot of instances, what we've seen from a policing perspective, regardless of the jurisdiction, is an increase in police officers going to mental health calls, psychiatric calls or calls that would not normally be considered a law enforcement issue. That puts a challenge on the public perception of police, because they might end up in situations where force is required. In today's day and age, obviously, there's a camera everywhere, and we end up in that public challenge of defending actions when perhaps the police wouldn't have been been there in the first place if other social programs had been in place and incorporated.

The challenge there, obviously, is that it's not only a federal government concern. It is a concern of provincial and municipal governments, so there needs to be a concerted front on that discussion as to what we want the social safety net of Canada to be. What we're seeing is that police are not just first responders; they're the only first responders left, and that's why we're ending up with a challenge.

I agree with you; it can be resolved otherwise. We just have to have that discussion.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I'd like to throw a question at the Building Trades folks.

Do you see COVID as the cause of what might very well be a temporary situation?

I think two things have happened. First, a lot of people in the workforce used COVID as a good time to get out and retire. Secondly, there's been this pent-up need for workers as a result of COVID.

Is this long lasting or is this something we have to deal with as a short-term measure because of COVID?

[Sean Strickland]

I'll start with that and then maybe Mark can share some experience from the field in Hamilton.

I think the answer is yes and no. In Alberta, for example, MP Liepert, the oil sands deferred some maintenance through COVID, so this year during the turnaround period they're actually going to have a longer shutdown period than they have had previously. They're going to require more workers than they had previously. I would see that as a temporary issue.

Moreover, in the long run, we have a structural issue with a lack of workers in the construction industry unrelated to COVID. During COVID, most of the industry right across the country continued to work. We did a really good job and were deemed essential. We looked after ourselves and worked with our contractors to make sure we stayed healthy. We kept on working.

Some workers did take that opportunity to retire, but the challenge is much more long term. It's very hard to get young people to come into the trades anymore. We're doing the best we can. We're doing the best we can to get more women and under-represented groups into the trades, but our industry really needs an influx of permanent immigration to help us with the structural challenge of labour availability over the next 25 years.

Mark, [Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Strickland. Your time has gone over.

Now we'll go to Mr. Long for five minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair, and good day to my colleagues.

Thank you to the witnesses. It's very interesting testimony.

Mr. Strickland and Mr. Ellerker, I'll just follow along MP Liepert's line of questioning.

I would put forth that the industry clearly was experiencing labour shortages prior to the pandemic. I recognize, as it has been said, that a significant amount of labour force is set to retire and we all know that workers from traditional sources won't be enough to fill the gap.

My first question is for you, Mr. Strickland.

Do you feel there is still a stigma attached to people going into the trades?

I ask you that question because in a previous HUMA in the last Parliament, we talked to some different tradespeople. In fact, in an example from Europe, there was actually an recruiting advertisement. It had two high-end executive condos and in the driveway were two beautiful trucks. Out of one door walked a doctor and out of the other door walked a plumber. That ad was designed to try to break that stigma. There are great jobs in the trades. We all know that.

I want you to touch on what we need to do as a federal government to help you recruit and train your employees.

[Sean Strickland]

There's a real push in many provinces and in the federal government already in advertising to get people to the skilled trades, so that needs to happen. The union training and innovation program needs to continue. There's been an allocation in previous budgets of up to $1 billion for the skilled trades—union and non-union—to attract more people. Those investments need to continue.

One big thing that would help labour availability across the country is a skilled trades mobility tax deduction. We have temporary shortages and structural shortages, but we also need [Technical difficulty—Editor].

Mark can chime in on some of his experience in Hamilton.

[Mark Ellerker]

It's an excellent question.

Another good example is hygiene. For a long time, if anybody was on a construction site or worked on construction sites up until the pandemic, hygiene lagged drastically behind.

If an office worker or an engineer was working on site, they would use their own washroom facility. You go on to a construction site and have to use porta-potties in the middle of winter. We have dark hours. People are working all different hours.

When we look at washrooms and hygiene, that ties into the health and safety piece of it as well. Supporting people with prevention and getting the message out to parents.... A lot of parents are making the decisions when it comes to having conversations with their teenagers. We work with the local workforce planning boards. We get out to schools and we do that [Technical difficulty—Editor].

It's a conversation about making construction workers more human, as Mr. Strickland spoke to, because we have a high suicide rate. It's the third highest suicide rate in Canada. Mental health is something. We're working on pilots with Health Canada right now on opioid addiction and education. There are lots of things that we're doing locally.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you very much.

Chair, I'll cede my time to MP Van Bynen. Thank you.