Evidence of meeting #29 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was supply.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Romy Bowers  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Éric Cimon  Director General, Association des groupes de ressources techniques du Québec
Jeff Morrison  Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association
Michael Bourque  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Real Estate Association

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Minister and Madame Chabot.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have six minutes.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the minister for coming to the committee today.

What we're doing is not working. The market-driven lens that we're putting this through isn't working, and we're losing affordable housing at a rate of 15:1 in this country. We can never catch up with what we're doing right now. It's like trying to go up a downward escalator the wrong way. We are never going to get to the top.

My question for the minister is on REITS. Right now, REITS are acquiring rental buildings, which we mentioned are needed and that developers don't necessarily want to build. REITS are acquiring buildings that offer affordable rent and then demolishing them. Studies have shown that we are losing these housing units so quickly, and we're failing people. Would the minister support a moratorium on REITS until we fully understand the impact on people of taking away their housing in communities?

I want to share that in my community, REITS are now going after stable housing for seniors and persons with disabilities, and they have nowhere to go. Minister, I have been in the homes of single moms of children with disabilities and seniors who are asking me to find them long-term care homes to go into. They've been tricked by these developers into believing that they need to get out, even before rezoning has happened.

I want to understand. How are we going to protect affordable housing? If we're losing it at 15:1, we are never going to catch up.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Chair, I want to begin by highlighting the fact that it is our government that has brought forward a 1% tax on the value of non-resident, non-Canadian-owned residential real estate. We have committed to reviewing the tax treatment of the real estate investment trusts that the member refers to.

I want to go back to the prelude to the question, saying that our government has taken a market lens to our national housing strategy. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are the government that brought a human rights framework into the national housing strategy, a legislative framework. We are the government that has introduced a number of different programs to build more affordable housing. While we're doing that, we recognize there is more work to be done. That's why we've brought in the Canada housing benefit, which is helping literally hundreds of thousands of Canadians obtain direct rental supports so that they don't end up on the street.

We recognize there is more work to be done, but to characterize our efforts over the last number of years as being driven by the market is completely not true, and I want to challenge the premise of the question.

Yes, we have to tackle financialization. Yes, we've banned foreign investors from purchasing Canadian residential real estate for two years. That will provide more homes for Canadians. We are the government that is.... Rapid housing alone has delivered 10,250 deeply affordable homes—100% federal grants that have been provided to communities to build deeply affordable housing.

We have done a lot, informed by a human rights approach. We are the government that appointed a housing advocate and a housing council. We'll do more.

It is unfair to say that we're being guided by the market. That is absolutely not true.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Minister, you and I stood in a parking lot for a housing announcement where three buildings heavily supporting Syrian refugees who came to my riding of Coquitlam lost their housing based on a market approach to making land go through a development lens. The developers needed to go for extra density and bonus density. We had to do land transfers with perfectly livable, purpose-built rentals where immigrants who had recently come—refugees who came to this country—were displaced.

I stood in those homes, Minister, and I'm telling you that I've seen on the ground that we are looking at this through a market lens.

I don't have much time, so I want to talk about accessible housing. When I was first elected, I asked an Order Paper question on accessible housing. I asked about what we're losing. CMHC came back and said, “CMHC does not collect data on accessible units that have been lost or decommissioned.”

I would ask the minister if we are keeping track of what we are losing in this effort to fill the supply gap.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I'll turn the attention of the honourable member to the fact that, in the national housing strategy, for every single project that seeks to get money from the federal government to build housing, whether it's private sector, government, another order of government or the non-profit sector, we have minimum accessibility requirements. Unless they fulfill accessibility requirements from our government, they don't get a single dime from us.

Since we came into office, we've built 36,000 units of accessible housing across Canada. We're investing in the development of more inclusive and accessible communities through the national housing strategy. The affordable housing innovation fund is encouraging projects to come forward to innovate more accessibility. Barrier-free housing for Canadians with disabilities is a priority of the national housing strategy and always will be, including in the housing accelerator fund.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

You have 14 seconds. You could ask a short question that could go on the record, Madam Zarrillo.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Sure.

I have the stats here from CMHC in asking about the decommission of accessible housing. We didn't collect data until 2017, it looks like here, and for the first three years, there really was nothing done. Maybe only in the last two years, in 2020 and mostly in 2021, was there any movement. Perhaps the minister would like to update us on why we didn't collect data before 2017 from CMHC on accessible units.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Sir, could you could provide the information in writing to the committee?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Yes. I will turn it to CMHC to provide that information.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.

I believe it's Mr. Ruff next.

You have five minutes.

June 2nd, 2022 / 4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the officials from CMHC. I think Mr. Mason is likely the best one to answer it.

I have some not-for-profit organizations that are overseeing affordable housing builds in my riding, but they're running into issues. Some of that is tied to high inflation. There are supply chain issues tied to the pandemic. They're getting delays, and now, also, there are the increased interest rates.

These organizations have mortgages that must be approved by CMHC. However, because their previously negotiated approvals are no longer available or meeting the interest rates now that they're going up, they're being told they can't negotiate directly with CMHC but must go through their lender, and they must buy down the interest rates to 3.5% at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I'm asking about what options are available to these not-for-profit groups to actually carry on with these projects. When they can't negotiate and they don't have the money, what options are available to them?

4:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Thank you very much for that question.

We recognize that the current uncertainties in the current economic environment put great pressure on housing providers, particularly those in the non-profit sector. I think the best advice that I can provide your constituents is to give the local CMHC representative a call. We work with clients on a day-to-day basis to address specific issues or concerns they're having with their files. We're very happy to talk to them and also to intercede with the lender to determine what things we can do within our authority.

I would really encourage your proponents to contact us. We'll provide the list of the representatives responsible for your riding, and we can continue the discussions with them.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Thanks, Ms. Bowers. I'll likely quote you on that, because they're being told that they cannot negotiate directly with CMHC and that they must go through the lender. Anyway, I'd appreciate clarity. Feel free to follow up.

Chair, I will cede the remaining part of my time to Mr. Liepert.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Mr. Liepert, you have the floor for three minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

Since this government took over, we've heard a lot about how much money has been spent on housing. I think what has been lacking, though, are the real, detailed outcomes. I hear you as minister, and the previous minister, throwing numbers around—40,000, 30,000 and whatever—but I've never really seen where that is actually justified.

First of all, I think what you're attempting to do here with this fund is the right thing to do, because if you talk to anyone in the construction business, their number one frustration is getting through the regulations, the approvals and all of those sorts of barriers at the municipal level. Taking action to try to clear out some of those roadblocks is I think the right thing to do.

Again, I'm wondering how you plan to ensure that there are specific outcomes and specific goals achieved so that we're not just throwing more money at something when we really don't know whether, at the end, the kinds of results that we hope will be attained are actually attained.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's a great question, and I would point the member to our track record with other investments. If you look at the rapid housing initiative, in a very short amount of time we were able to conclude agreements with non-profit organizations as well as municipal governments to deliver housing and to deliver it within 12 months or less—and they all stepped up and did it. We were able to do that because we had binding agreements with them.

In all the different programs of the national housing strategy, we actually sign agreements with proponents to make sure that they keep up their end of the bargain with respect to affordability, accessibility and energy efficiency. This will be exactly the same. The only difference is that we're now investing in systems as opposed to a straightforward project.

On a broad scale, we will require that particular municipality or that particular regional government or whoever is responsible for the permitting and delivery of housing to bring forth a road map or a list of what the challenges are in that particular community to increase housing supply and to do it faster. Once they identify those challenges, they also have to provide us with a road map of how to overcome those challenges and what it would take to overcome those challenges and basically draw a “before and after” picture. For example, you have one permitting official in your city and you give out 100 permits a year. If we provide you with a second permitting official and we pay the salary, we expect at least 200 permits to be issued in that community. Those outcomes will be part of the systems planning we would demand in that agreement, and it will be a binding agreement.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Could you make the commitment, though, that in some form you would give updates on an every six months basis, so that we know the funds are actually going to where they're supposed to go?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Yes. Not only that, but we would have the power to design the funding in such a way that it is based on keeping commitments, making sure there is leverage in our agreements to make sure that people are keeping their commitments as part of the agreement. As I said, this is an investment in systems, but the systems improvements have to result in better and faster output of housing, including affordable housing. That will be identified in collaboration with the local community, and we will certainly hold them to account to make sure they meet those benchmarks.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Liepert.

Now we go to Mr. Collins for five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, welcome today. You continue to do an excellent job, and I think everyone, irrespective of what side of the House they're on, understands that you're very passionate about affordable housing. Thank you for your attendance today to assist.

My questions today are for the CMHC representatives. I should start by saying I have questions that I'm going to submit to the clerk that I'll ask CMHC to answer after our meeting concludes.

I had the opportunity, obviously, as a municipal representative to sit on our municipal housing board for a number of years—13 years—and in the last seven I acted as president of CityHousing Hamilton. My experiences, as an elected official, with CMHC in the application process for a number of different programs that CMHC offered over the years were very frustrating. I made a commitment that if I made my way to Ottawa one day I would raise these issues, so here's my opportunity.

If I could, through you, Mr. Chairman, we in Hamilton had a number of projects on the books where we had the opportunity to apply to the co-investment fund, as well as the innovation fund and a number of other areas—rapid housing, I think. If there's an Academy Award for housing programs, that one takes home all the Oscars, but I have to say some of the other programs were very frustrating.

I've heard the same from not-for-profits here locally in Hamilton. I had the opportunity annually to visit and attend the ONPHA conference, where housing providers from across the province meet and share their experiences. I have to say that in their comments about CMHC, many relayed that they had frustrating experiences.

Today, we're talking about modernizing the application process for municipalities through the accelerator fund. I really think there should be some attention...maybe even taking some of those resources and providing them to CMHC so that they can use those funds to modernize their own application process.

I can say that, from the comments from my municipality, we experienced significant issues with the application process that led to, not just delays but unnecessary costs for us, and that's in stark contrast to the experiences that we've had with FCM and the green municipal fund that was offered to us. It was a very easy, seamless process for our staff and for our council, and the funds flowed much quicker than they did for the co-investment fund.

In dealing with the co-investment fund, we found the vetting process to be...and I think the word our staff used was “excruciating”. We experienced many delays. We were forced to submit, I think, 25 submission packages through the projects that we were dealing with related to the co-investment fund. We had 75 or more distinct documents, so you can imagine, when you're asked for additional information as part of your submission, you have to go back out to an architect, an engineer. You have lawyers who then have to revise all those documents and submit them.

It was a lot of time and lots of extra funds that we essentially didn't have. When you're dealing with not-for-profits, they're in a much different situation, because they don't have the funds and the resources that municipalities have.

I'd like your comment. Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the representatives, do you ever do a satisfaction survey with those that apply for funds through any program through CMHC? I'll start with that.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Thank you for that question.

The first thing I'd like to do is apologize on behalf of CMHC for the difficulties that your constituents have had. CMHC had not been in the business of providing direct delivery of housing, so definitely in the initial phases of the national housing strategy there were lots of growing pains and lesson learned. I just wanted to start off by offering my most sincere apologies for some of the things that you described.

Having said that, we have learned a lot through our experiences. We do survey our clients on an ongoing basis, and we take that feedback into account in improving our processes. For every transaction, we measure what's called a “net promoter score”, which is basically a measure of a client's satisfaction with the process. We've seen a gradual improvement in that over time, and we're actually quite pleased with where we are right now.

We've learned a lot, as I mentioned previously, from things like the rapid housing initiative. I think that program was rolled out very quickly, and it's our intention to make sure that the standard that was established in the rapid housing initiative be implemented in other programs going forward.

This is not to say we're perfect. We continue to be a learning organization, and I really appreciate your bringing these types of issues to my attention so that we can continue to learn and become better. Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thanks.

Mr. Chair, I think I'm out of time. I will add my outstanding questions to the list I'll provide to the clerk, unless I have more time.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Collins. Both you and Mr. Liepert are over, but they were fair questions.

We will conclude the first hour with Madame Chabot and Madam Zarrillo.

Madame Chabot, you have two and a half minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, my first question has to do with the budget and indigenous housing in rural, urban and northern communities off reserve.

The committee did an extensive study on the national strategy for indigenous people living off reserve. The government launched the strategy but allocated just $300 million over five years in the last budget.

I want to share what the Réseau québécois des OSBL d'habitation had to say. According to the organization, in the recent budget, the government finally announced that it would move forward with an indigenous housing strategy, a much-anticipated measure the government had been promising since 2017, when it launched the national housing strategy. The organization goes on to say that the paltry sum of $300 million over five years is practically a slap in the face given the overwhelming needs of indigenous people living off reserve.

The committee's study illustrates how extensive the needs are. We called for a housing strategy that was created by and for indigenous people.

How do you explain such an insignificant and laughable investment to address current needs?