Human Resources Committee on June 13th, 2022

[Celeste Hayward]

Yes, that's for the majority. I think there are one or two projects that have partnerships on reserve, as well, but that's all off reserve.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

One of the things we consistently hear is that one of the barriers or hurdles tends so often to be municipal guidelines, municipal regulations, those sorts of things. Is this something that you as an advocate on behalf of indigenous housing want to talk about a bit? Is it a problem as well?

[Celeste Hayward]

Yes, thank you for the opportunity.

Absolutely, the majority of the municipalities across British Columbia don't even mention or have indigenous priority within their housing strategies or plans. We did a study, I believe, two years ago or a year and a half ago that identified that. One of our big asks for this housing accelerator fund is to ensure municipalities engage with indigenous communities for builds and allow for culturally supported housing and cultural safety to be part of what they're doing in these municipalities for housing.

Across British Columbia, many municipalities have indigenous-run organized housing or housing service providers within their catchment areas.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Consultation is one thing, or to have recognized indigenous housing, but I'm thinking more of things like zoning and those sorts of things.

In your efforts over the past few years, are there a couple of specific things that you constantly run across that just don't seem to be necessary at the municipal level? Would you care to elaborate a little bit on that?

[Celeste Hayward]

Sure. We are currently looking at developing some indigenous complex care, which is intensive supportive housing in British Columbia, and we're running into zoning issues in these developments. They're not new developments. They are builds with renovations, and the concern we're facing is that, in some communities, we can have only six units. We can't go over that because then that's too many in the community for these complex care needs, and the reality is that the people who will be using complex care are already in the community. They're just street-entrenched or living in shelters, so why is zoning getting in the way of creating really solid opportunities for indigenous people to access support, attachment and the full realm of services to have a stable life?

We definitely have, over the years, faced that problem, especially around Nimbyism.

I'm sorry—I'm not a specialist on zoning, but we are definitely facing it in complex care.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

It's the kind of thing we hear about consistently, and one of the concerns I have with programs like the accelerator fund is appropriate measurements of success.

Have you given any thought to what the federal government could implement into the regulations within the legislation or the program to ensure that some of these things are cleared out of the way? Is measurement important to you? Is measurement of success important?

[Celeste Hayward]

Of course. I think one thing that would be really useful would be concepts of cultural safety. AHMA is developing cultural safety in housing, because it has definitely been in health. If municipalities actually applied cultural safety in reviewing their housing strategies and how they're working with indigenous people, I think we could reduce the amount of stigma and discrimination and racism that exists within the city itself, or the towns and so on, and maybe change some of the experiences of indigenous housing providers and housing service providers looking to establish affordable housing and low-income housing.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Clarify this for me: Is there anything in this accelerator fund program that would be applicable to the situation on reserve?

[Celeste Hayward]

I'm not the person to talk to about on-reserve housing. I don't do—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Okay. Does one of our witnesses, our guests, care to elaborate on that? It would seem to me that there shouldn't be the same kinds of barriers if it's on-reserve housing that's being applied for.

Does anyone want to make any comment on that?

[Sarah Silva]

Sure. I could try to answer that question. It is a bit frustrating having a lot of the housing funding defined as being on reserve and off reserve. The Province of B.C. is the first province to fund housing on reserve and not to look at those lines anymore, and it's made a huge impact in our province and in our community. Really we stood up to create Hiy̓ám̓ Housing and do all of these initiatives because we got access to more funding from B.C. Housing.

It would be great for the federal government and CMHC to start considering allowing these funds for on reserve as well because we do have our own barriers to development on reserve as well.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Silva.

Now we go to Mr. Van Bynen for five minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be directing most of my questions to Mr. Gladstone, but before I do, I will say that I was keenly interested in the project that was outlined by Chief Patrick Michell of the Kanaka Bar Indian Band. I was wondering if there was a project overview or outline that talks about the project that could be sent to this committee? We'd like to hear about successful projects and how they might be reflected in the funding.

Are you able to make that information available to us?

[Patrick Michell]

Absolutely, yes. I've done a bit of an outline on videos as well as materials, and we did do a video for May 27. I'd be happy to send an outline of videos and PowerPoints to the committee as well, which can be forwarded to the participants.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

If it's replicable, maybe that could be utilized as some of the framework.

Mr. Gladstone, in budget 2022 the government explained that the housing accelerator fund would be focusing on increasing supply with “the creation of 100,000 net new housing units over the next five years”, but “government supports will be targeted to ensure a balanced supply that includes a needed increase to the supply of affordable housing.”

In your opinion, how should the government define “affordable housing” in the context of the new fund? Should it be housing that is targeted to moderate-income, lower-than-market income or low-income families? You've used the term “deeply affordable housing”. How would we be able to define those?

[Gary Gladstone]

There is a core housing need in the low-income sphere at 80% of the market rate, which is what CMHC refers to as “affordable”. It goes even further than that, and my term of “deeply affordable” refers to the amount that ODSP permits for rent. Just speaking of Ontario, but other provinces are similar, it's $497 per month per person.

If we don't intentionally build to that with appropriate targets in place, it won't be built. I would suggest to you that 10%, or in this case 10,000 of the 100,000 units being built, would be at the deeply affordable rate, at the ODSP rate, to allow access to those in greatest need. This would include the vast majority of those with intellectual and developmental disabilities, 90% of which live below the poverty line.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

You mentioned 10%. Would you see that as 10% being a specific carve-out of the fund to fund units or projects that are deeply affordable, or would you see that as requiring 10% of every project that is financed to have deeply affordable components within those projects?

[Gary Gladstone]

The ideal scenario is mixed rent with mixed developments, but that's not always going to happen. The overall would be that 10% of all funds must be to that group, which is essentially what we have asked the Province of Ontario to do and to speak to their municipalities. A nudge from the federal government would go a long way, not only in Ontario but across the country. That's the only way that it will happen.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Is there a risk of a project like that being stigmatized, and how would you overcome that?

[Gary Gladstone]

The intentional community residences that Reena operates are in communities. The individual units are rented by the tenants themselves, and they have complete access to everything. It's where the individuals we support wish to live, but it's also important to note that choice is vital.

With the funds and more buildings happening, people can choose to live much as a so-called typical individual. Some wish to live in apartments. Some wish to live in seniors apartments. Some wish to live by themselves, and some with roommates. The same should be available.

It so happens that Reena has built the Reena Community Residence, the Lou Fruitman residence in Vaughan, and we're now building the Frankfort family residence in Toronto, because the need is so great. People want to live where they will be appropriately supported with friends and with others who will look after them the best way possible. We have found zero stigmatization whatsoever in our current places.

At one point, there was some Nimbyism, but Reena, from the get-go, meets with others in the community, explains who, what, where, how, and as soon as people are aware of individuals moving in, they open up their doors even more.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

What barriers do non-profit and for-profit housing developers face in creating accessible housing?

[Gary Gladstone]

The biggest one would be funding, particularly from the non-profit side of things, and the availability of funds to bring it down to “deeply affordable”, where most of the individuals they would support are.

Zoning is another big one. I can speak to Ontario zoning, in particular, and the extended greater Toronto area, where, if more than three individuals are living together who use a wheelchair or are mobility-challenged, they need to have a special type of zoning—B3—which increases the pricing tremendously. In an apartment building, if three individuals wish to live by themselves, with no support from an agency, you could have everyone in the building by themselves with no supports in a wheelchair. The minute an agency supports them—more than three—then more building code standards are required.

Safety is essential. One of the reasons why Reena builds its own buildings is the accessibility and safety features. We can build them better than the developers. Developers come to us and say in no uncertain terms, “You're doing it the right way.” They just can't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen. We're well over time.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Ms. Silva and Ms. Whitzman.

We've heard from some of the witnesses that the definition of affordability in the national housing strategy should be reviewed and ideally be the same across all programs.

Do you have any comments on the definition of affordability that we should adopt?

I'd like to hear Ms. Silva's response first, and then Ms. Whitzman's.