Human Resources Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2023

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I will call to order the 52nd meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee will commence its study on the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (B), 2022-23: vote 1b under Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and votes 1b and 5b under Department of Employment and Social Development.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022, and therefore its members are attending virtually and here in the room.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I will recognize you before you speak. You have the option of speaking in either official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available. If there is a problem with interpretation and translation services, please get my attention. We'll suspend while they are being corrected.

There is a speaking order. To get my attention, simply raise your hand. If you're on screen, use the “raise hand” icon. I will remind all members and witnesses to address their comments through the chair. In accordance with our routine motion, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests. All the witnesses are in the room.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions.

Appearing this morning is the Honourable Seamus O'Regan, Minister of Labour, who will be speaking and taking questions on the study matter before the committee for the next hour.

Mr. O'Regan, you have five minutes.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning to you.

Good morning to the members of the committee on a very cold morning. I'm joined by my deputy minister, Sandra Hassan, and by Brian Leonard from my department.

Of course, we are meeting today on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

My job as the Minister of Labour is to support workers and employers and to create good jobs. Most importantly, what we can do for Canadians and for our country as a whole is to make sure that every worker has a good, well-paid, stable job, jobs that they can be proud of, with people who respect them and respect their skills.

The tripartite relationship between our government, unions and employers is essential to this work. That tripartite relationship is what makes our economy so strong. I'm very proud of the relationships I've built with workers and industry.

This year, we requested $3.1 million to support the implementation of 10 days of paid sick leave for all workers within the federal jurisdiction. The legislation and regulations came into force on December 1. Paid sick leave will protect workers and their families and will protect their jobs, protect their colleagues and protect our economy. It means that workers won't have to choose between getting paid and getting better.

The legislation for paid sick leave was passed unanimously in the House. I want to recognize the strong working relationship with my critic at the time, who now serves on this committee, the member for Parry Sound—Muskoka, as well as the member for Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, the deputy leader of the NDP.

We’ll use this new funding to develop training, update information technology systems and adapt our compliance and enforcement strategies.

We also requested $1.7 million to support the completion of the Employment Equity Act review. This is operating funding for skills and resources required to support the next phase of the review that is following the release of the task force report.

In keeping with my mandate, we will amend the Canada Labour Code to include mental health as a specific component of occupational health and safety. We will require federally regulated employers to take preventive measures to address workplace stress issues and injury risks.

In addition, we believe in equity, diversity and inclusion in the workplace. The working group reviewing the Employment Equity Act has resumed its work and should complete its analysis this summer. I look forward to reading its findings.

I am also quite proud to say that Canada, along with the provinces and territories, has ratified International Labour Organization Convention No. 190, which will help eliminate violence and harassment in the workplace. During this event, I was joined by my colleague, the member for Thérèse-De Blainville, who sits on this committee.

We are doing big things for workers, and we are doing big things for employers in this country. We are making workplaces safer, healthier and better places to be. That is good for workers. It is good for employers. It is good for our economy.

I will leave it there, Mr. Chair. I look forward to taking questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We'll now go to questions. The first round goes to Mr. Lewis.

Go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before committee this morning.

I appreciate your final couple of statements suggesting that we're doing things for workers. I believe that, collectively across Canada, there has never been a more important time to do things for our workforce.

My first question is for you, Minister. Syncreon workers from Essex-Windsor—and it could be more than Syncreon but specifically for this company, which has since been shut down—were let down by the EI system when their manufacturing site closed. The qualifying number of hours for EI, to my understanding, is currently set at 560 in Windsor and 700 in Huron County, which ironically is Essex County. The EI hours are set by the place of residence of the worker, not the location of the employment, and this has caused an inequality in benefit support to those in the Essex County area.

Would you support setting qualifying hours based on the location of employment and not the place of residence?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

As the member well knows, I appreciate the severity of this issue. I've been down to the region. I visited you when I was down there. My colleague Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk, who is the local member of Parliament there, has been bringing this forward. I know this is something Minister Carla Qualtrough has been watching, and EI falls under her purview.

What can I say? Having so many workers find out by robocall that they no longer had a job is not preferable, to put it mildly. I don't know if Minister Qualtrough is watching these proceedings necessarily, but as soon as this hearing is over, I will be sure to bring it to her attention once again.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Just as a follow-up to that, in this case many of the workers who were laid off did not qualify for EI because they had worked for only 200 hours between May 1 and October 31, 2022. Understanding that the severance pay was money collected from their wages and owed to the workers and that many of these workers had already taken out massive personal loans over the last two years to make ends meet, do you think that exceptions should have been made with regard to extending the temporary EI measures with respect to qualifying hours and on suspending the allocation of severance pay?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Lewis, I might be best to keep my thoughts on the matter to myself, because there are policies and regulations and so on that are involved here.

All of that is to say that my heart goes out to a lot of people in your region who, I know, have borne the brunt of this. My colleagues here and I will be sure to bring this matter to the attention of our colleagues in ESDC following this hearing.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

We heard earlier this week that the printers at the Windsor Star are going to cut 40, 50 or 60 jobs there as well. We are probably going to be revisiting this.

On Driver Inc.-type employment and truck drivers' employment status issues, truck drivers have complained that they are being taken advantage of by trucking companies. They are asked to identify as being self-employed, which leaves them without health insurance, contributions to CPP and other benefits. This means they are in a vulnerable situation without the rights of a full-time employee.

I know that some recent initiatives by you and the ministry of labour are going to put in place fines for those companies that categorize their drivers incorrectly. Do you think the legislation will have enough teeth to change the status quo? If so, how can we protect truck drivers more comprehensively and increase the number of drivers entering the supply chain?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

We refer to the Driver Inc. model as a kind of misclassification of new workers. Truck drivers are not aware, but suddenly they are classified as independent contractors.

We amended the labour code by prohibiting the misclassification of workers, and we have been inspecting work sites since then. Where we find people in non-compliance, we will take action through orders and fines and even prosecutions. We have the authority to do that. We expect all employers to treat their employees fairly, and those who don't will face the consequences.

We're committed to protecting workers in this space. We will continue to work with the sector directly to figure this out and to make sure that people are treated fairly.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for that very thoughtful answer.

I have about one minute left, so I'm going to dive into the last question I have for you.

We all agree there's a severe labour shortage across Canada from coast to coast to coast. It's specifically in our skilled trades. I think about the Gordie Howe bridge and the remarkable folks, both men and women, who are working so diligently to finish the busiest international border crossing in North America. When that is done in 2025, Minister, those folks are going to need a home.

My private member's bill, Bill C-241, will allow these same trades folks to travel across the country, go to the new Gordie Howe bridge, wherever that may be, and write off their expenses.

Minister, what are your thoughts on that? Would the Liberals be supporting this when it comes back for third reading?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

One of the first things I did as Minister of Labour was to support the labour mobility tax deduction. That's mainly because it's how so many people out my way get to work. Many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians travel back and forth to this day, all the time, to Saskatchewan and Alberta to work in the oil patch. I'm very proud of the fact that they contributed quite mightily to the building of the oil patch out west.

One of the things that we found unfair was that you had salesmen who could go back and forth. They could make deductions, but the actual people who were doing the work with that equipment couldn't. We've made headway there.

I'll leave it at that, other than to say that my heart's there. That's for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll now go to Mr. Coteau, for six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much, Minister, for being here, and thank you to the officials joining you today.

You've been on the job now for about a year and a half. One of the most substantial implementations of a big change has been the 10 paid sick days. It was a big issue in my home riding and in my province of Ontario. It was a big issue right across the country.

Can you take a few moments to share with us what the implementation process has looked like over the last little while?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I appreciate the question.

First of all, yes, I want to acknowledge the hard work of some of the members in this room who helped to get that passed unanimously. Paid sick leave is a big deal. I have also been encouraging my provincial counterparts to take note of it and consider it.

As you pointed out, right now this is not something.... In the throes of COVID, as we were trying to deal with that, if you had told me we would be coming out of this and confronting the most significant labour shortage in Canadian history with the highest employment rate and the lowest unemployment rate in Canadian history, I wouldn't have believed you. But here we are. It's extraordinary, but it does have its own challenges.

One of the benefits of paid sick leave is that—we believe in looking at other jurisdictions where it's occurred—it will lead to higher worker retention. Where workers are treated well, they will stay in the jobs where they are at if they feel the full benefit.

It was also in our experience...and this is something that came up as we were looking at how businesses are going to confront this. One of the things we know is that most workers don't take the full 10 days. In federal jurisdictions, by the way, I should also add that a number of employers were already offering 10 days, close to it or more. The 10 days is just what we are asking for. It's the minimum. We find that most workers take anywhere from four to seven days. The cost to employers is not sizable, but they do benefit from retention.

Right now, I'm happy to say that, as of February 1, workers in federal jurisdictions accumulated their fourth day. They automatically received three days on December 31, and they will continue to accumulate them throughout the course of the year. It's happening.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much. We appreciate the work you're doing. I know that residents in my riding appreciate the work you're doing.

I recently took a look at your mandate letter. There's a piece around mental health in the workplace. You've been asked to look for ways to improve mental health in the workplace across the country. Can you talk a bit about that? What are the challenges, trend lines and strategies you're going to put in place to look for ways to improve mental health in the workplace?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I'm very happy you asked this question. It's something that's very near and dear to my heart. I was a former ambassador for Bell Let's Talk. I've been very public about some of my own challenges.

You have half a million Canadians who miss work each week due to mental illness. That is sizable. Each one is a case of somebody who is suffering. Crassly—if I can add this, too—cumulatively, that is a real hit on the economy.

Workers are people. People have complex lives. They have complex needs. I think there are two ways that I, as Minister of Labour, want to try to close this gap for workers. Number one is making mental health a component of workplace health and safety. Number two is the right to disconnect.

Mental health is health. You hear that increasingly often. It's a good thing, but we really have to absorb that and we have to absorb that in our public policy. We need to consider it, and such injuries associated with it need to covered by occupational health and safety requirements as much as physical injuries, because mental health is physical health too. By not addressing this, the Canadian economy is losing an estimated $6 billion each year in productivity. An estimated one in three workplace disability claims in Canada right now is related to mental illness.

It's something I take very seriously. It underlines a lot of what we are trying to do right now in labour.

On things like the right to disconnect, I'd say to watch this space. The idea of the right to disconnect was a policy that was being contemplated well before COVID, but now, when we look at everything that has changed in the workplace as a result of COVID, it has never been more pressing.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Minister, diversity, inclusion and equity are huge issues for which I've looked for ways to improve over the years in politics. We have a workforce in which we have a lot of people. Unemployment rates are the lowest they've ever been. We have an integration of women into the workforce beyond the numbers we've seen in the past, but there are still some groups that are not quite there. These are some young people, remote and rural communities, racialized Canadians and, perhaps, some indigenous communities.

Can you talk about how we look for ways to improve and create more diversity and inclusion in the workplace overall? What are your thoughts on that issue?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

We've seen more progress in diversity in the workforce in the past two years than we perhaps ever have in Canadian history. That is because we've had such low unemployment numbers and high employment numbers. We have seen the marketplace in this instance move far faster than any government program could ever do, and I'm delighted by that.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Chabot, you have six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Greetings, fellow committee members.

Minister, thank you for being here today.

I would like to begin by commending two things you mentioned.

First of all, there was the entry into force of Bill C‑3, which, among other things, provides 10 days of banked paid sick leave. This is a major step forward. The Bloc Québécois is proud to have helped make it possible.

In addition, the International Labour Organisation's Convention No. 190 on violence and harassment in the workplace has been ratified. We know that this is an ongoing phenomenon in the workplace. In order to make workplaces safe, it is absolutely necessary to eliminate this issue. We now need to ensure that our labour codes and standards, both at the federal level and in Quebec and the provinces, comply with this convention.

There is another high-priority issue that workers care deeply about, and that is the issue of anti-scab legislation. I know that this is included in your mandate.

On January 30, as consultations on this issue were winding down, there was a demonstration on Parliament Hill. The demonstration was held in front of Parliament Hill and was attended by workers from the company Océan remorquage Sorel, in the port of Sorel-Tracy, who have been on work stoppage since last June. The employer is in no hurry to resolve the situation, given the presence of scabs since the beginning of the conflict. This is unacceptable. I would have liked to be there to greet them, but I was in Geneva at the time. This issue is a priority for the Bloc Québécois. We have already introduced 11 bills to address it. I tabled the most recent one. If you wish to take it on, we would be pleased.

Now that consultations are finished, when can we expect to see the introduction of a bill on anti-scab legislation? Can you give us a deadline?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you for the question.

We prohibit the use of replacement workers. We make sure that the collective bargaining process is as free and fair as it can be, so that workers are empowered to ask for more when they feel they deserve more for the work they do.

I sat in on many of these consultations. I think I sat in on all of them on replacement workers. We decided to make sure that employers and employees had the opportunity to sit down in the same room together and air their concerns and grievances to one another, as well as where they saw the benefits.

To get to where you were going with your question on those consultations, right now we are still going through what we heard. What we have committed, with the NDP, is that we will be introducing legislation by the end of this year. Having gone through these fairly extensive and very frank consultations that, again, I sat in on myself, I think we have an opportunity to make sure we get this right.

The consultations were extremely important. I realize that the issue of replacement workers is not new to the House. I realize that private members’ bills have been introduced in the House on several occasions, but we have a strong and proud history in this department, and in labour in this country, of tripartite negotiations and sitting down with employers and employees. I wanted to take it a step further. I wanted to make sure that everybody was in the same room so that we had very fulsome discussions on how this could best be implemented in the interest of workers and in the interest of the economy as a whole. I think we're getting there.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Let me ask you another question, Minister: why wait until the end of the year? If the NDP-Liberal coalition is already working on this issue, why not move more quickly? Why not move forward faster than 12 months from now?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I think the devil is in the details, as they usually are in these things. I think this is a big move. It is a big move not just for employees. On the day we announced it, I said that this was an absolutely seminal day for workers in this country. It is something that for decades they have been asking for: a ban on replacement workers. Having said that, we also have to make sure that we take into account employers and the effect it will have on them, and that's very important.

One of the reasons I obviously support this move is that it will keep people at the table. It will keep parties at the table. They will not be distracted by anything else that is happening outside. Replacement workers and their usage can leave long-lasting effects on employee-employer relationships within a company—very long-lasting—and I want people focused at the table. We have had incredible success. I wish I could take the credit for it, but it is the officials within my department who know how to mitigate and conciliate. We have a success rate in the 90% range in making sure that we come to an agreement with parties without there being work stoppages.

The tone of that table, of all parties believing they have a neutral body here in our government that will attempt to mitigate these disputes, is absolutely essential. I need to make sure that I have the trust of all parties on board.

We stand by our commitment, though, and our commitment is to make sure the legislation is introduced by the end of this year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

We have Madam Zarrillo for six minutes.