Human Resources Committee on Feb. 17th, 2023

[Paul Mason]

I think the two biggest learnings coming out of the first two rounds of rapid housing were giving a longer window to intake applications—so we've extended the window—and to also increase slightly the time allowed for the completion of the housing projects. Obviously we want to approve projects that are ready to go, but we realized that with some challenges in construction delays, the time requirements were a little too short.

Those are probably the two biggest improvements we've made in the program.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

What about agreements with provinces? How do you track those in terms of results and the bilateral agreements we have with the provinces?

[Paul Mason]

As part of the bilateral agreements, the provinces are required to report on their progress through the bilateral agreements. We have a team within CMHC that works with them to standardize the reporting and ensure the reporting is delivered in a timely fashion.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Okay.

You're going to table in writing the projects you have, but I think the question around affordability is a really big one. What numbers can you give us in terms of how many units you've created in terms of affordable units and in being clear on that? I think there's a misunderstanding around each program and the results in terms of affordability. If you could table those numbers, I think they would be useful for the members of the committee, and again, in terms of affordability, they're the numbers around what you mean by “affordability”.

How many non-profit organizations are you supporting and accompanying in making sure that they can present projects in the different programs you have? Maybe you could give us an update on those people who work at CMHC and work with these non-profits. For instance, in Quebec for non-profit organizations, we have the technical resources that have worked with non-profits to do housing, but you don't have that in other provinces, so what is the role of CMHC? How can you work with non-profits to make sure they actually tap into those projects?

[Paul Mason]

We are happy to table the number of units per program that we've committed and those that are considered affordable under the criteria of that program, but we can also provide—in particular, for our two largest programs around construction financing initiatives and the national housing co-investment fund—the average rents we're achieving through those programs and also, in relation to the minimum criteria, by how much we're exceeding those. We can do that.

As it relates to our staff on the ground, our staff play a very important role in working with the not-for-profits, both to help them navigate the application process and to provide feedback on the applications and help work with them. If a project comes into us that we don't feel is going to be viable, they work with them to determine what changes can possibly be made to the project for it to be viable and funded through our programs.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Maybe you can also share the numbers around the objectives through the clientele, because I know that you were targeting, for instance, women, accessibility.... I know there are numbers there that maybe you can share with the members of the committee too.

[Paul Mason]

Yes, and thank you for the question. It's a very good point to note that it's not simply affordability.

We do have requirements around climate compatibility and accessibility and, as an example, targets around the amount of funding that goes towards women and children. We can provide those breakdowns. I can tell you right now that the per cent of our total funding that has been allocated to serve the needs of women and children is around 30%.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mason, at the beginning of the meeting you said that you would be able to give us detailed figures so that we could see where the different programs were. I would like to make a comment, which is not a question. We received additional notes following your appearance, in which there were tables and figures, but I must tell you that it was hard to understand. For Quebec, figures were given such as 160, 22, 169, 14, 79. As for the 30% threshold, it said "not applicable". In any case, I did not understand anything and I do not know where such data leads us. It could be more precise.

I am going to ask a question now about Canada's Homelessness Strategy, which is the Reaching Home program. It is a great program, and all the organizations are praising it. However, in reality, it is painful to see that we need such a program, which seeks to help the most vulnerable find safe and affordable housing, and which also seeks to reduce homelessness by 50%. In 2022, due to a post-pandemic phenomenon, there was an increase in homelessness, mental health problems, and so on.

The 2022 report of the Auditor General of Canada was quite critical of this program. There is an inability to really track whether the housing created under the program meets the needs. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation says it will implement the Auditor General's recommendations.

However, aside from those recommendations, where are the changes? How are you going to follow up concretely on the data collection? That seems to us to be of major importance.

[Paul Mason]

We did accept the findings of the Auditor General's report and we have already started to implement some of the key recommendations. In fact, some of those recommendations were being implemented even prior to the completion of the report, including the reporting on who's living in the units we're providing, as well as how Infrastructure Canada and CMHC work together.

Infrastructure Canada is delivering the main program that targets chronic homelessness, called Reaching Home, but it does fall under the umbrella of the overall national housing strategy.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Are you telling me that there have been concrete changes?

You say you accepted recommendations. Are there any changes? Are we able to know now in a concrete way how we can follow up on this program? Will you be able to tell us how many vulnerable people can receive help from the programs? I am also thinking of people with disabilities and women living alone.

Are you now in a position to give us details on the real effects of these measures, or do you not know? If people do not know and are unable to measure that, it gives the impression that the National Housing Strategy is not working, whether it is true or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Mason, could you respond in writing to Madam Chabot's question?

I will now go to Ms. Kwan for two and a half minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On the REITs question, could the officials provide a breakdown of CMHC's support for REITs and other corporate landlords for all initiatives within CMHC and broken down by year and by jurisdiction?

[Paul Mason]

Yes, I can confirm that REITs do not receive funding through our national housing strategy programs.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

They certainly receive insurance support and so on. That's the nature of that, although you did mention that in the co-investment fund, a small percentage went to REITs, which is shocking to me if that's the case.

I would like to get all of the information on how CMHC supports REITs and corporate landlords.

[Paul Mason]

I can confirm that REITs are not receiving funding through the co-investment program.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Okay, great.

If I could get all the information, though, with all the other programs CMHC provides to REITs, from the inception, that would be helpful.

On the issue around inflationary costs, for committed projects under the co-investment fund to which funds have not yet flowed, and with the costs of construction increasing and mortgage rates increasing, is there a place for those committed projects if people find themselves in a situation where they cannot meet costs because of the inflationary costs?

Is there another pocket that they can turn to?

[Paul Mason]

After we've committed to any of our programs, we work closely with our clients to ensure that the project is viable, including whether there are impacts of cost escalations. We continue to work with them to see if we can make the project viable. Sometimes that means an adjustment in the contribution level.

Again, we're managing within the envelope of funding that we have within those programs.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Can you table for the committee how many projects have become not viable and will not proceed as a result of inflationary costs, and the timeline in which they've been stuck in the processing period with CMHC? Give a yes or no.

I then want to get some information on the RCFI. Can we get an update on what's happening with the RCFI initiative?

[Paul Mason]

I will take that question back. It might be difficult to determine categorically which ones [Inaudible—Editor], but we will endeavour to provide that information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you very much, Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm sorry. On the RCFI, where is it?

[Paul Mason]

The RCFI, as well, is exceeding its current unit targets at this point in time, as well as the depth of affordability that we're achieving through the RCFI. If I recall, the RCFI is primarily a supply-driven initiative.

Having said that, the minimum requirements for affordability are currently being exceeded through that program as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Aitchison for five minutes, please.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, thank you. I'm sure this has been one of your more enjoyable mornings. I appreciate the answers you've given us on a difficult file. I think we've all acknowledged that this is a challenging time.

I also think it's important to acknowledge what you've pointed out about CMHC not being alone in this space. It is one of the players that requires other agencies within the federal government, provinces, municipalities and the private sector. Housing is an “all hands on deck” situation.

However, you've acknowledged the need for CMHC to dramatically improve its processes, to speed things up and to streamline the process. That's great. It's an important thing. Obviously, you know that had to happen. I appreciate that you're doing that.

You've also acknowledged that inflation is eating away at every dollar invested. We are, therefore, ultimately producing fewer units than we had hoped. CMHC has also pointed out that we probably need about 3.5 million more units than would, I guess as of right now, be built over the next little while. I think that is a total of 5.8 million units over the next 10 years.

The need is clearly quite dramatic in terms of housing units. Of course, we've also heard all the reports about the very beginning of the housing spectrum. Whether it's homeless shelters and beds, the number of people who are not necessarily underhoused, like we're dealing with a lot here...but the people who are literally homeless is growing in this country. Tent cities are growing. The number of homeless people who have died in the city of Toronto has doubled over the last couple of years.

I appreciate that it's not CMHC's job solely to fix this, but one of the things the AG said in her report was that there was no real champion for all of this. I'm not about to suggest that it's your job, Mr. Mason, to be the champion. You are a cog in this wheel. There's no question about that.

This is an epic situation. We've described it as a crisis around this table. Housing providers describe it as a crisis.

Would you agree that Canada is facing a housing crisis right now?