Human Resources Committee on Feb. 17th, 2023

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

For lots of affordable housing providers, and I'm now wearing my old hat as president of CityHousing Hamilton, our main two issues that we had as a priority were fixing old units—many of them 50 or 60 years old—and building new, to get people off the affordable housing wait-list. What I've found in dealing with the programs here is that the per-door costs that you're investing in many of the program areas are very high. Rapid housing is an example of that. It's a great program, because you had provided a tremendous amount of grant money, but the unit costs are about $600,000. Your return—our collective return on our investment—is very expensive, if I use that as an example.

Toronto city housing has hundreds of vacant units that are in the 50- to 60-year-old category. They're uninhabitable, so they sit. Many of them have sat for years.

Hamilton has the same inventory. I'm sure all my colleagues around the table have an inventory like that. The cost to get people living in those units again is probably in the $100,000-to-$200,000 range. You're talking about leaky foundations; every time it rains, the basement fills up. You need an overhaul of the unit from a basement perspective, if I use that as an example.

Your return on your investment in terms of getting people off the wait-list and into these houses is at a much lower cost point than what we're collectively paying for rapid housing units. Do you ever take those things into consideration?

There are probably thousands of these units across the country. I know they would be eligible for co-investment funding, but if you were to provide a grant to municipalities and not-for-profits, those units could be fixed within six months. We avoid the two-year application process. We avoid the whole issue of trying to find a lender and a percentage point on borrowing that works for everyone. You essentially just find, if you can, people in the construction industry to do that work. Those units become fixed almost immediately.

I would just ask, as you review your policies every three years, as you said you would, if you could think about that. On a per-unit basis, you would do more in funding those projects than any other stream that you have provided since the development of the national housing strategy.

I leave that with you.

[Paul Mason]

In fact, we did recently make offers to a number of municipalities through the co-investment contribution specifically for that purpose. As you are aware, the rapid housing is specifically for the development of new units, but through the co-investment, we've worked on some offers to municipalities. There has been a very popular take-up to do exactly that, and fix some of those units that are under their management.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Mason, I am going to ask a question about our ability to have more housing. The Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act came into effect on January 1, 2023. I believe you were involved in the development of the regulation. Correct me if you were not, but I know that it is the responsibility of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to provide data.

From our side, we think it is a sound idea to try to keep non-Canadians from speculating here. However, there are permanent residents who contribute and want to buy a home, but they cannot, even though they are not necessarily speculators. This is a problem.

Having been involved in the development of the regulations, do you think there could be a legislative change to so that the definition of speculator does not include so many people?

[Paul Mason]

Thank you for the question.

With regard to the foreign buyer ban I believe there are exceptions in the legislation for permanent residents of Canada.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You say you believe there are exceptions. So that would need to be checked. If you could give us a written clarification, that would be interesting.

This committee did a very interesting study on the new Housing Acceleration Fund, and we made several recommendations in response to the testimonies we heard. I will summarize them: that the money flows quickly; that the fund is available in addition to other programs; that there is a data collection mechanism to track the fund; and that the fund is primarily dedicated to the construction, acquisition and renovation of units.

Do you intend to take these recommendations into account? How do you intend to follow up? What monitoring tools does Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have in place to assess the progress of the Fund's objectives?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

You will have to respond to that, Mr. Mason, in writing to the committee per her request.

Ms. Kwan, you have two and a half minutes to end this part.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I want to follow up on my last question on the RCFI, where the response was to say that the program was oversubscribed. Is that under the new program?

[Paul Mason]

The requirements under the rental construction financing initiative have not yet changed.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Your reference was on the previous program, notwithstanding the fact that under that program, the rent was actually quite non-affordable, somewhere between 30% to 120% above market. So the new program that was part of the agreement with the NDP has not yet been launched. Thank you for that. It's good to know.

On the issue of the funding CHMC receives for indigenous women and girls, and this is in particular to the $420 million that was allocated to build transitional homes and shelters for indigenous women and girls, why haven't any of those dollars flowed?

[Paul Mason]

I will ask my colleague, Ben Williams, to add onto this, but what I can tell you is that we've committed approximately $90 million for 22 projects to date in that stream. I would ask my colleague to comment further.

[Benjamin Williams]

Yes, in 2021, $421 million was announced for the shelter initiative. We had two windows for applications in 2022. As my colleague, Mr. Mason, just said, 22 projects have been selected for approximately $90 million. As with our other programs, funding flows with construction. Although committed, now we're waiting for some of the documents to come in to be able to start flowing those advances and we expect that in the coming months.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I just want to point out that as each year passes and the money doesn't get to the ground to build housing, people are dying. I'm just saying that on the record. It's the process within CMHC that's not moving it forward, that's why the programs are not launched. If you talk to the non-profits on the ground, they say that they are ready but they are still waiting for CMHC approval so they can get the money and get the projects off the ground.

I can't emphasize enough how frustrating it is continually. I want to ask this question—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan, your time is exhausted.

That concludes this portion of the committee's study.

I want to thank the witnesses for appearing this morning from CMHC. You can see it is a subject matter that is a top priority amongst all members of this committee. We thank you for the informative session we had. We will suspend for a moment while we move in camera to do drafting instructions of the report.

Ms. Kwan, do you have a point of order?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I just want to express my thanks to the officials. I think this round of questioning from officials was more forthcoming than any other rounds we've had with both the Minister and with the head of CMHC. I just want to say thank you and express my appreciation to the staff who appeared today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

With that, we will suspend for a moment.

I'm looking forward to all of those detailed answers that we've made note of.

[Proceedings continue in camera]