Human Resources Committee on June 20th, 2023

[Susie Fortier]

On the public site of the regulator, there is information available.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Can that information be submitted to this committee?

[Susie Fortier]

It's public information. Sure.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That would be great. Thank you so much.

I want to get back to the question of dignity and persons with disabilities having equal access and dignity to travel. I wanted to ask specifically about third party training.

I note the third parties were doing more training than the actual agency themselves, especially at the executive and management level. Are there any numbers around what percentage of work is outsourced and what their turnover rates are like?

I'm trying to understand how much training would be involved with third party usage.

[Susie Fortier]

For CATSA, the services in the airport are all delivered by third party screening contractors. Part of their certification process is that they be trained before they start.

We did see that over the summer there was a lot of new hiring. There was a lot of discussion in the newspapers about this situation. We did see that it was part of their certification process before they started to be on the floor. We noted that as a good a practice—making sure that people delivering the service on the floor had their training done.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Would the agency be able to understand what that turnover rate is like and how much training would go on? I think that would probably be part of the cost of the contracts, to make sure that people are being trained adequately. Is there any information about what turnover rates are like in the third party?

[Susie Fortier]

We don't have this information. We just know that, for CATSA, it's part of the certification process, so any new employees need to be certified as part of that process. Any new contractor needs to be certified, and as part of the certification process there is training on accessibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo. That is your time.

Ms. Ferreri, you have five minutes, please.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time and insight into this important study.

I think it's really important to look at this. I think lots of us don't know what we don't know when it comes to barriers. Nobody really knows what a barrier is until they don't have access. Thanks for your work on this.

There are a couple of things that jumped out at me when I was looking at your report. For those watching at home, the report is, “Accessible Transportation for Persons With Disabilities” in the reports of the Auditor General of Canada to the Parliament of Canada.

In the last section, in the “Overall message”, it said, “The Canadian Transportation Agency has very limited authority to request complaint data from the transportation service providers.” Why?

[Casey Thomas]

It's simply not in their mandate to be allowed to collect that information, as far as I understand.

[Milan Duvnjak]

That's at the current time. As we know also, we do have a recommendation in this area. They do, of course, agree with the idea of having more access to full data, like their U.S. counterparts. We believe they will be looking to get further access.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

The way this is written, it says “to request”, so why would requesting data be...? I understand that the CTA is not mandated to give it, but you're saying that they have a very limited authority to request it.

[Susie Fortier]

The directive allows them to have access to some information when they're doing a special evaluation or assessment of a specific case. In that context they may be able to ask the transportation service provider to have access to the information if it's a case that goes to the court side of the agency, for example.

The CTA doesn't have the mandate and they don't have the right to regularly access this information on an ongoing basis, such as “just give us your accounts of complaints that you've received related to accessibility on an annual or a monthly basis.” They don't have this right. It's only part of their investigation when there is a specific complaint that is being put in place that they can ask about this information.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

When I think about requests for information, if they don't provide it, there is no consequence. That is what you're saying, basically. Is that fair? I'm seeing a nod. That's good.

According to Statistics Canada, one in five Canadians, aged 15 and over, has one or more disabilities that could limit their participation in everyday activities. Of the 2.2 million persons with disabilities, who used federally regulated transportation in 2019 and 2020, 63%, or two-thirds—which is significant—faced a barrier.

As auditors, my question to you would be this: What's a realistic goal or number? Is it realistic to have 0% facing a barrier? What is that timeline? I know you mentioned that 2040 is too long to wait, but we also know that businesses are burdened with so many things, and it is absolutely challenging to make things accessible. It's costly. There are lots of things. I don't think it comes from a lack of compassion.

What do you think is a realistic number, from an auditor's perspective, versus 63%?

[Casey Thomas]

To start off, we're probably not going to be able to give you a number.

Every Canadian has the right to fully participate in society, and I think that consultation is a critically important part of the act. One of the main principles is “nothing without us”. Therefore, that number should be.... The objective of the act is to eliminate barriers, and that should be the objective of the organizations.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I understand your position that you don't want to give a number, but I think a goal is really important to draw a line in the sand of what we should expect. To be fair, there's unanimous consent. Everybody agrees that every human deserves that right.

What is a realistic goal to achieve, in terms of a number?

[Casey Thomas]

The goal for the Government of Canada is to eliminate all barriers. Therefore, organizations need to work towards eliminating barriers.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

What is the time frame?

[Casey Thomas]

The time frame that has been given is 2040. That is the legislative requirement.

We're hopeful that organizations, as Mr. Duvnjak said, can front-load getting those barriers removed, as opposed to waiting until the very end, closer to that deadline.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Do you think the government right now, in the way that it's currently operating, is on a trajectory to meet that goal?

[Casey Thomas]

The organizations we looked at have accepted our recommendations. They have action plans in place. We're cautiously optimistic that the organizations within this audit can move towards that objective and can positively achieve it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

Next, we have Mr. Coteau for five minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for being here today. This report is, without question, a very important document. I'm glad that the organization is focusing on disabilities.

Have you done reports like this before within other sectors that speak specifically to disabilities? Is this the first of its kind?

[Casey Thomas]

Yes, this is the first one we've done since the act was put in place in 2019.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'm assuming there are going to be more, because you could apply accessibility to so many other things.