Absolutely. We're in our planning stage right now for our future audits. There are definitely audits that are touching on this subject. They are on our list right now to determine which ones we're going to do in 2025 and further out.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I notice that in the actual user's experience with online technology, you used a standard from the World Wide Web Consortium. It was the web content accessibility guidelines 2.0. Is that an international standard?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Office of the Auditor General

Susie Fortier

Yes, that's an international standard. It's the standard that is required to be compliant with the accessible transportation for persons with disabilities regulations.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Is that used all around the world?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Office of the Auditor General

Susie Fortier

It's used in many organizations. There is a new version. Sometimes Europe uses a variant of this standard, but it is under the same principle. It's the same approach. It's 2.0 versus 2.1. That's a very technical detail. I'm sorry.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Did you look at other standards that were out there and just determine that this was the best one?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Office of the Auditor General

Susie Fortier

We picked this one, because this is the one that was required in the regulations.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

It's in the Canadian regulations. I got it. Okay.

I also noticed that in some of the findings you actually used data from 2021 from Statistics Canada and applied it to a report in 2023. However, the technology is so different, and there are so many changes. How did you justify taking data from 2021, and applying it to 2023 and these organizations?

It says, for example, on page 9:

Using websites to make reservations or look for information was a barrier faced by 3 out of 10 travellers with disabilities, according to Statistics Canada’s Accessibility in Federal Sector Organizations Survey, 2021.

Is that a fair assessment to apply to this report two years later?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Office of the Auditor General

Susie Fortier

We used the data that was available. It was very relevant data for our purpose. It was for people who had travelled both before the pandemic and during the pandemic. The experience might have been different there as well.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

For example, and this is 1.30, it states:

We found that 17%...of the online criteria tested at VIA Rail did not meet the required standards.

How did you find that out? Was it just by using that criteria and applying it?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Office of the Auditor General

Susie Fortier

Yes, we selected a sample of criteria. We looked at some selected pages on the sites of each Crown corporation. We used an expert in web accessibility to do the testing, as well as a person with a disability who did the testing on our behalf.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Maybe I'm getting a bit too detailed, but did you find that the variants of programs used by the end-user sometimes varied so much that it was hard to really apply to that testing?

I was part of an organization that looked at digital literacy, for example. We found that it was really hard, because there are so many different types of programs. There are legacy programs that people have been using for 15 years, because they work so well. Sometimes, when different scripts change, it becomes more difficult.

Was there a way to get over that challenge?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Office of the Auditor General

Susie Fortier

We clearly did not have all of the tools and everything, but we looked at some of the top two tools that are used for screen readers, for example, in a variety of browsers, which seemed to be the more frequently used as a representation of this. However, we didn't test all of the tools that could be used. We used a selective approach on what could be tested to get those results.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

When a report like this comes out and you have organizations like Via Rail, is there a follow-up meeting to figure out how they're going to move forward on some of these recommendations, specifically around accessing the online information?

5:15 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Casey Thomas

Absolutely. Our process is that during the course of the audit we interact with them frequently. We share the draft recommendations with them to ensure that they're actually going to achieve the outcomes that we think the recommendations will achieve.

We then table the report and they're then responsible for putting together both responses to our recommendations within our report, but then also an action plan in relation to the public accounts committee hearing. They have put together their action plan and shared that with that committee.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you for the good work.

I know that my time is probably up. I can feel the chair looking at me.

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you so much for this work and I hope this is the start of an ongoing process to increase more accessibility for people in Canada, so thank you again.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

Before we move to Ms. Gray, it looks like we'll have time for one full round, which is five, five, two and a half, and two and a half, if that's the wish of the committee.

Then it's five minutes for.... Is it Mr. Aitchison? My notes say Mrs. Gray, but if you do that, we'll not get to Mr. Aitchison.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you. I know we moved a few things around there.

Thank you again for being here today.

One of the things I wanted to touch on was that the report revealed that Via Rail and the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority took steps towards engaging with persons with disabilities for specific activities when they should have consulted more broadly, such as on teaching methods for accessible training.

Based on your observations, was this a priority of those organizations?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I think you forgot the opposition here on the questions.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

No, I said five, five, two and a half and two and a half.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

You missed two and a half and two and a half after Michael.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Maybe we need the vice-chair.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

I'm following the approved routine, the approved order that we go through when we're moving through a sequence like this, which is subsequent rounds, because we did not go with two panels. We just had one. I'm following the approved procedure.