Human Resources Committee on June 20th, 2023

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Can we just allow the two members to finish up? What did they get, two minutes? Are we going to do that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

Mrs. Gray, because there's a group with only one witness, we're following the approved order so we'll end with two fives and two two and a halfs.

Mrs. Gray, we'll start with your five minutes. You have the floor.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Maybe I'll just go through that again then.

I wanted to touch base on the consultation part.

Via Rail and the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, they took steps towards engaging with persons with disabilities for specific activities, when they should have consulted more broadly such as on teaching methods for accessible training. Based on your observations, was that a priority of the organization, or what was your sense when you were doing the audit on this particular issue of where their focus was?

[Casey Thomas]

I'm just a little unclear on the word “priority”. Is that in terms of the teaching methods, or...?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Yes, it's in terms of the teaching methods for accessible training.

[Casey Thomas]

I believe when the consultations were were carried out, there was direction to participants to not talk about teaching methods because they really wanted to focus on the content of the training as well. I do believe that afterwards we did some follow-up work and determined that there was no follow-up in relation to teaching methods.

I'll look to my colleagues to see if I've missed anything there.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you.

With regard to the complaints, your report said that from 2017 to 2022, where Via Rail and the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority categorized complaints under persons with disabilities, there were 83 complaints specifically. However, it said that more than 1,000 were made by or on behalf of persons with disabilities and those were categorized by the operational nature of the complaint.

Do you know why this data was not leveraged to identify and prevent barriers to accessible travel? Why was it was categorized the way it was?

[Casey Thomas]

CATSA received the information and categorized it, as you said, by its nature. If they had been capturing it by status, it would have meant, for example, that a complaint lodged about a service dog, as opposed to being lodged about security screening, might have been lodged in relation to a person with a disability.

Had they done that, it would have given them the opportunity to better analyze the data and understand whether or not other actions should have been taken.

[Milan Duvnjak]

This is in relation to the data strategy that we talked about. We have a recommendation, and they've agreed with it, with the objective of getting a broader picture with a cleaner, more concise and consolidated dataset.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

That's sort of looking forward. Do you think there's a way to capture the data that's already there and a way of disseminating it? Is there a way of recovering that data and categorizing it differently, or is it like they did the best they could based on what was provided so here is the recommendation for moving forward?

Is that the state of where it was left?

[Casey Thomas]

I suspect that they've collected the data and they have the information. It would be up to them to determine what they can now do with that data.

I'm not as familiar with it to determine whether or not it's easy to go back and do work, or if this would be more for them moving forward to ensure that they accurately capture the information, analyze it and then use it for decision-making.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

As part of that, looking at what the information is being used for, are you aware of anything or did you come across anything in your audit from the regulator's point of view? Are there opportunities there that should be looked at from a regulatory point of view and not just from an individual organization point of view, whether it's policy or benchmarks?

Is there anything that you came across as part of that process that maybe should be looked at from the regulator's point of view?

[Casey Thomas]

We definitely referred in the report to the complaint data and the limitations that are currently in place.

I'll ask if there was anything else that we came across.

[Susie Fortier]

In the regulation for the plans and reporting on accessibility, there is a component where, in future reports, they can report on the feedback that they have received. It could be part of a data strategy to report on their complaints as part of that reporting.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

This is more of a general comment on the oversight from the regulator. In the analysis you did, do you feel that, up to this point, it's been a more reactionary as opposed to a proactive approach to this? Because they are the regulator, they're the ones to hold the organizations to account and make sure that they're fulfilling the objectives in the act.

Do you think they've been more reactionary to this point, based on your analysis?

[Casey Thomas]

What we found was that they were finding barriers and identifying those that could be removed. In fact, in one of our exhibits we show those that were identified and those that were removed.

One limitation we did find was that their inspections were really focused on the design. They didn't go and test the actual service delivery. That would be an area where they could improve.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Gray.

Ms. Martinez Ferrada, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Thomas, I'm going to tell you a little story. My brother has been disabled since birth, but we've travelled a lot with him. He is now 38 years old. He has made many plane trips and things were complicated every single time, even just to get him into his seat. When passengers are still babies or very young, it's not a problem, but I would challenge you to travel with a disabled person in a wheelchair who is 30 or 35 years old.

You talked about data and how the service is provided. I was wondering what you would like to see in other reports on how to evaluate this type of service. In the end, my brother was assisted by firefighters, because no one else could move him along in his wheelchair or get him out of it. You also mentioned the number of wheelchairs that were damaged, and it would be interesting to know more about that.

Could you tell us a little more about special assistance services, for planes, for example.

[Casey Thomas]

Thank you for telling us your story, which is very personal. I was moved by it and I can only imagine what it must have been like. We travel often and the number of complaints we've made is unbelievable. Our baggage has been lost or damaged, but that's nothing compared to equipment that is damaged or that fails to arrive at all.

I'll ask my colleagues to provide more details in connection with your question.

[Milan Duvnjak]

Yes, it's a very challenging and very sensitive area. We've seen it through our audit, and we've seen it through the eyes of some of the experts we have hired as advisers. We've seen a number of high-profile cases, of course, in the newspapers and the media.

In our view, this all starts with a high-level consultation with persons with disabilities. We then drop down to training, so we test the training, look at the programs and so on, and then when we get to the actual physical move. There need to be certain machines helping aides to do this. You have to have the right person who's properly trained for that machine, and have the machine in place to be able to offer the service the person needs.

Hopefully, it happens. We know it doesn't happen all the time—it's unfortunate—and then we get into cases such as those you are describing.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

That leads me to airline passenger rights. The minister introduced new measures to strengthen these rights and put the burden of proof on the carrier. How could that improve accessibility?

[Susie Fortier]

We haven't yet studied that regulatory aspect. You're talking about the air passenger protection regulations, which are not the same as the accessibility regulations. As this was not part of our audit, I cannot, unfortunately, make any comments on that.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

I was in fact more interested in whether it could be applied to accessibility.

[Milan Duvnjak]

Could you repeat your question?

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

The question is with regard to the passenger rights regime. Do you think the passenger rights regime...?

If the minister reviewed the measures of that regime, could that be applied to accessibility?