Evidence of meeting #14 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was immigration.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Professor Skuterud, you talked about a number of different issues in your testimony. You mentioned in passing the impact of international student labour on unemployment levels. Mr. Hussan disputed your claims in that regard.
Do you want to say a bit more about why you think, in particular, that very high levels of international students coming into the country have impacted the competition for entry-level positions?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
That's what the data says. This is what I've been doing for 20 years, studying the economics of immigration. I very much wish that what Mr. Hussan says were true. I would like that to be true. I'm an immigrant. I'm very pro-immigration and I wish that were true. As I said in my opening statement, I'm not driven by agendas. It's very genuine. I go into the data and set up the data in a way that I might get a wrong answer that I don't like. I tie my hands and look at the data.
We're working on a project now with what's called the CEEDD. It's a database which links immigration data, T1 tax returns, T4s and employer T2s. You see where people work. It shows up in the data. The question is not whether these effects exist; it's how big they are. It's not a binary question.
I completely agree with Mr. Hussan that the increase in the youth unemployment rate is largely overwhelmingly driven by the drop in labour demand, by the drop in job vacancies. There's also no doubt in my mind that increasing temporary foreign worker numbers or international student numbers at a time when unemployment is rising is not smart policy. The optics are bad and it undermines public confidence in immigration. That's not good.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I want to emphasize that nobody here has ever claimed that immigration is the only factor. We've said that there are problems in the economy, problems in immigration and problems in training, as well as some challenges around moving to where jobs are. Our plan addresses all of those points.
To suppose for ideological reasons that there are no effects whatsoever of immigration on employment is clearly putting ideology ahead of economic science. Every single economics professor we've had before the committee has made the point that there are real issues in terms of immigration that a dispassionate, pro-pluralism, pro-immigration member of Parliament should look at and take seriously.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Genuis.
I would remind witnesses appearing virtually to keep your cameras on at all times when you're appearing before the committee.
Ms. Desrochers, you have six minutes.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Hussan, I'd like to start by apologizing to you for the way my colleague seemed to attack your position. I gather he disagreed with what you said, but I don't agree with how you were treated. I know you've invested time to be with the committee today, so thank you for being here.
You talked about the contribution of immigration to economic growth—
Conservative
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I just want to apologize on behalf of Ms. Desrochers for her comments, which were inappropriate.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Mr. Genuis, that's not a point of order and you know it.
Go ahead, Ms. Desrochers.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
We're all apologetic here. We're all apologizing.
Thank you for raising the contribution of immigration to economic growth, which I think was really at the centre. I think what every government always tries to do is ask how to spur economic growth. This was at the centre of the commitment the Harper government made in 2014 to sharply increase international students. They doubled them and doubled skilled immigration.
I remember because I was there working in the public service and implementing those policies. Those were great policies and we have built on that in the years following that.
Earlier this week, we tabled budget 2025, which is a great document. It creates a $40-million national youth climate corps. This will provide paid training for youth in climate resilience and emergency response.
Do you think initiatives like this help the vulnerable and racialized youth get their first work experience?
Executive Director, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change
Briefly, the youth climate program is a great first step. It's something that many climate groups have been calling for. My understanding is that it's too small. There are about a few hundred spots in it. I think it's a great first step, but there needs to be way more spots in it.
Matching youth with jobs is a much better approach than obsessing over immigration in response to polling that the Conservative Party has been doing.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay. Thank you very much for that, Mr. Hussan.
I'm going to turn to Mr. Skuterud.
Again, thanks for your comment about temporary foreign workers and the tenuous link. I agree with what you said. It’s not smart policy to continue bringing temporary residents when unemployment is rising. I think we've taken steps, including throughout 2024, to send a lot of signals to reduce the number of international students and the number of temporary foreign workers and to reduce immigration levels, so I think we are trending towards that now.
You said that the low stats around job vacancies went from 600,000 to less than 300,000. What are some of the drivers? Are there just fewer jobs out there or fewer job vacancies? Is it that there are fewer entry-level jobs overall?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
There are two things. First, I don't think it's right to say, or at least I hope I didn't suggest, that it's a tenuous link. It is not a tenuous link. The idea that immigration can have adverse impacts on labour markets where natives are competing with new immigrants is not tenuous. That's a very strong finding in the labour economics literature. It really isn't tenuous. That's the first thing.
The second question—
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
I was referring to the foreign worker program, but yes.
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
This was a study that was buried. ESDC sponsored a group of academic researchers to do economics to study the effect of Canada's temporary foreign worker program. That is a working paper with the Canadian Labour Economics Forum, where I'm a director. It's a free paper. Anybody can go read it.
That paper showed, using the most recent Canadian data we have, that these crowding-out effects exist. That's ESDC's own research that it has paid for and supported.
Anyway, it is not tenuous. I know we would like—I would like—that result to be true, but just ignoring the truth does not get us anywhere. That's not helpful.
On your second question about the 600,000 job vacancies that went down to 300,000, those are jobs that require high school or less. That's what we call and what ESDC calls a low-skilled job. That 600,000 number was exceptionally high. That was a historic high. You shouldn't look at where we are now as an incredible low. What we've done is we've returned more to where we were. It was after the pandemic, for various reasons I could get into but you probably don't want me to, that there was tremendous growth in labour demand for low-skilled labour. It was tremendous growth.
That's the way to think about this. We've just returned to normal since then.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you.
I have one more question.
Are the programs we currently have, like the youth employment strategy, union training and all of those things, effective at getting young people their first jobs? It is, as I think we've heard from other witnesses, crucial for them to remain employed.
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
Sorry, is that a question for me?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
For sure, government programs that create jobs for young people or subsidize wages, like summer employment programs, are helpful, but they have opportunity costs. Every dollar spent in a government program to create a job is a dollar not spent somewhere else in the economy.
That's what you have to think about: What are those trade-offs?
Liberal
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would also like to thank all the witnesses for sharing their work, expertise and experience with us. It's a very broad study. Even if we choose to focus more on certain topics, there are a lot of nuances and grey areas.
On the subject of temporary foreign workers, you talked about studies, but we can all agree that Canada and Quebec are very vast. My region, Quebec's Côte‑Nord, is in demographic decline. A lot of jobs, both skilled and unskilled, go unfilled, which hinders industrial development. I was wondering whether the studies take into account the fact that circumstances can be quite different from one area to the next.
I would also ask Mr. Bizzarro to speak to employment insurance in that context, because it doesn't work the same way everywhere. Our approach has to be nuanced so as to help the population as a whole, because it's a bit different from one region to another.
Mr. Bizzarro, I'd like you to elaborate on the principles you mentioned. You talked about a fair, universal and accessible employment insurance system, for example. My former colleague, Louise Chabot, who was the member for Thérèse-De Blainville, introduced a bill to make the employment insurance system universal, accessible and fair. You offered recommendations, but I'd like you to give us concrete examples, because that's what we sometimes forget. We go from the general to the specific, but specifics can help us understand what should be done for young people.
We may also need a more interdisciplinary approach to EI, like we have for immigration and temporary foreign workers, because the changes we make have broader effects across all regions.
Co-Coordinator, Mouvement autonome et solidaire des sans-emploi
Thank you for your question.
A large proportion of young people work part time, but they want to work full time. Many women are also forced to work part time. To be eligible for EI, which is supposed to be a social safety net for everyone, you have to have worked a sufficient number of hours, but it's harder for those who work part time to get that many hours.
We recommend reducing the number of hours required to be eligible for EI to 350 hours, or 13 weeks of work. We don't think there should be any distinction in terms of the type of employment you have, whether it's part-time or full-time, to qualify for benefits. Every worker pays into EI.
You talked about your region, Côte‑Nord, where industries are seasonal and workers find themselves unable to qualify for employment insurance benefits every year. Their industry shuts down for the rest of the year before they have accumulated the required number of hours. Nowadays, some industries shut down earlier than usual because of climate change. Forest fires in recent years, for example, have cut the length of a season by as much as half.
Furthermore, even when workers manage to qualify for employment insurance, they can experience what is called, in the jargon of groups that advocate for the unemployed, a black hole: the period after their benefits end, but before their industry reopens. They end up with no income for a few weeks or even a few months.
To solve this problem, we recommend giving 15 additional weeks to workers in seasonal industries who are eligible for employment insurance benefits. However, ultimately, we want all workers who find themselves unemployed to be eligible for 50 weeks of benefits so they can take the time to find another job and so that people who work in seasonal industries no longer have to get through the black hole.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC
Thank you very much.
That was a detailed answer. Before my time runs out, I want to add that we will be reintroducing the bill I mentioned. Reform would also have other positive effects, particularly on young people's education and retention in our regions, which is very important.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Liberal