Human Resources Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[Syed Hussan]

In terms of the youth employment and skills strategy, I think for us, we have to understand that international students, temporary foreign workers, migrant workers and immigrants are part of the Canadian labour market. Everyone who works in Canada is part of the labour market, so instead of pitting migrants against youth, we need a strategy that includes both. For migrants, that means permanent resident status.

Part of the problem is that people can be exploited more because they don't have equal immigration rights. We need a single-tier society where everyone has the same eligibility to leave bad jobs and the ability to stand up for their rights. That would be a major step forward.

I can send a fuller proposal in writing later.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you so much, Mr. Hussan.

With the remainder of my time, I'd like to give you the opportunity to expand on anything else you've heard throughout this testimony today.

[Syed Hussan]

Yes, of course.

I think the other thing is that Mr. Skuterud, for example, continues to bring up data, but causation is not caused by correlation. As I explained, 34% of international students were working in 2021, which is when this 20-hour work limit was removed. Higher rates of international students do not have a direct causation. Similarly, temporary foreign workers are working in agriculture and care. They're not working in new jobs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Hussan.

I allow everybody to go over the allotted time, but if that doesn't work, then we'll stop everybody at the allotted time.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't have much time, but I'd like to ask Mr. Bizzarro one last question.

It's about how, in the absence of reform, people slip through the cracks in the EI system. In particular, this affects the young people we are looking at as part of this study. They want to enter the labour market while completing their studies.

[Michaël Bizzarro]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

We believe that the core purpose of EI is to function as a social safety net. Initially, the goal of the program was to offer protection to all Canadian citizens. Young men and women are part of that group, whether they're newcomers to the labour market, in school or working part time. We believe that they all need and have the right to access the EI program.

We should start with better access to the program. We believe that nobody should be excluded because they have just joined the labour market or are studying while working, especially since they contribute to it as well.

I think it's important to improve the—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt. I'd like to clarify my question.

I would like to know if there is a correlation, a direct connection, for some young people, with pursuing their education. I myself had to leave home and go to Montreal to study. I had to work to pay the rent. We don't want a student's education to be in jeopardy if something happens. The same goes for work, for employment.

I want to know whether, in your opinion, there is evidence that young people may have to interrupt their pursuits or be unable to get a job because of flaws in the EI system.

[Michaël Bizzarro]

Yes, I understand your question now, Mrs. Gill.

Indeed, we think that programs like this one could help some young people continue their pursuits. If they have to choose between paying the rent and continuing their education, most students will unfortunately choose to go back to work full time to meet their basic needs.

We think it's important that they be able to continue their studies and become skilled workers for the labour market.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

Mr. Majumdar, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'd love to direct my questions to Professor Skuterud.

Thank you so much for your testimony, sir. As a first-time caller and long-time fan, I've really appreciated having a chance to see you here.

This is my first question. Based on your research and your work, should immigration policy be informed by economic outcomes?

[Mikal Skuterud]

Could you rephrase the question? I don't know what economic outcomes means.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Should immigration policy factor in economic outcomes? The GDP per country—

[Mikal Skuterud]

Again, I'm not trying to be difficult. I don't know what the question is.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

It's labour market needs and the way in which our economy functions in filling in gaps.

[Mikal Skuterud]

Yes, I guess I'll try to answer. I don't know how much time I have. It's hard to answer these questions. I don't want to get cut off halfway through.

The crux of the problem is that Canadian immigration policy on the economic front is trying to do too much. There's a principle in economics called the Tinbergen principle. If you have more policy objectives than policy instruments, you're going to make a mess of the whole thing. That's exactly what has happened on the immigration front.

We're trying to do everything. We're trying to populate areas where Canadians—young people—don't want to live and that have been bleeding young people for decades. We're trying to meet low-skill labour market needs, and we're trying to drive economic growth. These objectives are not well aligned, and you have a kind of single policy lever, so when you try to push on one objective, you make the other one worse off.

We've created a real mess.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you. I appreciate your response. In the interest of time, I'm going to the second question.

Could you discuss the myth of labour shortage and what labour oversupply does to wage growth, particularly for young people?

[Mikal Skuterud]

I've encouraged the 700 economics 101 students I taught today to watch this.

We teach what a shortage is in a market. It's when there's more demand than supply at the given price. When there are labour shortages, it means quite simply by definition that the price is too low. If there are labour shortages, it means wages are too low.

The way to deal with them is to let a free market do what it's good at—reallocate. Competition for scarce workers will drive the wages up, lead to new investments and productivity. Increases in wages will lower demand and increase supply. It's that simple. That's what happens.

However, when you get government interventions, they can make first best outcomes worse, and that is what we've seen in recent years.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Exactly. Free markets, equality of opportunity, merit....

In that context, sir, what do you think the impact of DEI policies has been on young workers?

[Mikal Skuterud]

It depends on who you are, I suppose.

I know people who have benefited from those programs, and I also know people who have probably been harmed by those programs. They have distributional effects.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

In what sense do you see the downside of pursuing those types of government interventions that get in the way of equality of opportunity and focus more instead on equality of outcomes?

[Mikal Skuterud]

At the University of Waterloo, there are positions, job vacancies, that very clearly exclude eligibility of certain groups. Those people just aren't eligible for the jobs.

If that's a job that I otherwise would have competed for and I'm no longer eligible because there's a DEI program, then clearly I'll be worse off.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I'm sorry to hear that, sir.

I think it undermines human dignity and professional accomplishment when those types of subjective pressures are placed on the marketplace for any profession.

Thank you for your courage in saying that.

I have about a minute left with you, so I'll ask you this question. You've said that permanent immigration isn't about meeting today's labour needs, but rather about long-term productivity. Do you believe that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Perhaps we could pause for a minute, Mr. Majumdar.

The bells are ringing. I need unanimous consent to continue. We would have one more after you.

Do we have unanimous consent?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

We have to head to the chamber.