Human Resources Committee on March 12th, 2026

[The Chair (Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Good morning.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 28 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, February 4, 2026, the committee is meeting on Bill C-222.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders of the House. Today, all members are in the room. The witnesses are appearing virtually and in the room.

Before we begin, I would like to review a few points.

For those in the room, please remember to silence your devices, and for the benefit of our interpreters, when you're speaking, refrain from tapping the boom.

You have the choice to participate in today's meeting in the official language of your choice. If you're in the room, please select the language in which you wish to participate by using the earpiece. For those appearing virtually, click on the globe icon at the bottom of your Surface. Choose the official language of your choice.

If there is an interruption in interpretation services, please get my attention by raising your hand. We'll suspend while it is being corrected.

Please direct all comments through me, the chair, and wait until I recognize you before proceeding.

In the first hour this morning, we have appearing with us as an individual, in the room, Lily Hamill, communications coordinator. Sophie Meunier, professor, Université du Québec à Montréal, is here by video conference, and as an individual, in the room we have Allison Venditti, human resources professional.

Each witness has five minutes or less for an opening statement.

We'll begin with Ms. Hamill for five minutes or less.

[Lily Hamill, Communications Coordinator, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to speak to you today.

My daughter Lyrica died on New Year's Eve in 2021 from complications related to her congenital heart defect. She was seven and a half months old. Lyrica had what we always called “rock star hair”. In her short life, she had undergone two open-heart surgeries. One was expected shortly after birth and the second came unexpectedly during a routine checkup.

Each time, my husband and I stayed in the hospital in Toronto for about a month while she was an in-patient. Because this was 2021 during the height of COVID restrictions, visitors were not allowed. Our older daughter Octavia, who was two and a half at the time, had to stay with family while we were there. We were unable to see her during those hospital stays. Octavia adored her baby sister. She is deeply missed by our family, and her loss continues to ripple through our daily lives.

The days and weeks after Lyrica died are not entirely clear in my memory. Like many parents in shock and grief, we were simply trying to navigate what needed to happen next, which for us was caring for Octavia. Within the week, I had to tell two separate people at Service Canada what had just happened. During that conversation, I was told that because my daughter had died, my maternity and parental benefits could not continue as they had been, and I had already accrued a $300 debt.

They did explain that I could transition to sick leave benefits. However, my employer does offer short- and long-term disability coverage that provided higher pay options with much less administrative burden, and we chose that option. My husband's employer offered the same. In that sense, we were fortunate. We continued to have income and job protection during that time. I am very aware that many families do not have that option.

Parents who are grieving the loss of a child are barely hanging on to routine daily tasks. Navigating new benefit claims, paperwork or potential repayments during those early days was an overwhelming burden.

Seeing that legislation like this has been attempted in the past, at a time when it might have been in place before my daughter died, makes this issue feel especially important for me. What happened in my situation is something that could and should have been prevented. No parent who has lost a child should have to navigate government paperwork or repay benefits while they are still in the earliest days of grief.

Thank you for the opportunity to share my experience and to support this important change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Hamill.

We will now begin with our second witness, Madame Meunier, for five minutes.

[Sophie Meunier, Professor, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today.

For the past five years, I have been leading a research program on return to work following a perinatal death—that is, the death of a child during pregnancy, childbirth or in the first weeks of life. This phenomenon affects from 20% to 25% of pregnancies, representing approximately 100,000 deaths per year in Canada.

Scientific research is clear: A perinatal death is a devastating experience that can have a significant impact on parents' mental health. Studies show that, several months after the death, parents still exhibit high levels of symptoms of depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress.

Our own data, collected from Quebec mothers, indicate that, within 12 months of the death, 50% of the mothers exhibit high levels of grief symptoms, while 30% of them meet the clinical threshold for a diagnosis of generalized anxiety. The vast majority of parents feel the need to take leave after a perinatal death. According to our research, 85% of mothers took leave following the death. That figure rises to 95% when the death occurs later in pregnancy, specifically from the 20th week of pregnancy onward.

It should be noted that, in Quebec, when a death occurs from the 20th week of pregnancy onward, the person who carried the child is eligible for 18 weeks of maternity leave through the Quebec parental insurance plan. According to our studies, more than 90% of eligible mothers used this leave. They subsequently reported experiencing greater psychological well-being upon returning to work.

In contrast, mothers who were unable to benefit from this leave instead resorted to sick leave, which involves administrative procedures that can be burdensome, or to leave without pay, which has significant financial consequences, or took no leave at all. Mothers who used these types of leave reported lower well-being and greater psychological distress upon returning to work. These levels of psychological distress were subsequently associated with difficulties functioning at work, including problems with concentration, lack of motivation and energy, and decreased productivity.

On another note, for nearly 60% of the mothers we surveyed, the return to work was primarily driven by financial reasons, even though they didn't necessarily feel ready to do so. Participants in our studies also reported that, in the month following their return to work, they did not feel well physically or psychologically during an average of 65% of their work time. This proportion rose to 74% for mothers who were unable to take maternity leave and to 80% for those who had to take unpaid leave before returning to work.

Finally, although there is more data available for mothers, it is essential not to overlook the experience of the partner, often the father. Studies show that fathers can also be deeply affected psychologically following a perinatal death. Often placed in a supportive role, many feel that it is less legitimate for them to express their grief, and their experience remains largely invisible. This invisibility is reflected in the support measures available to them, which are very limited. Most fathers return to work quickly, sometimes immediately or only a few days after the death. They report various difficulties at work, including a drop in concentration and energy. For some, the lack of time off eventually catches up with them a few months later, leading to prolonged absences. The fathers we met during our research report that they must rely on the luck of having an understanding employer to obtain the support they need, which creates significant inequalities from one person to another.

In summary, research findings show that, following the loss of a child during the perinatal period, the vast majority of parents feel the need to take time off. The lack of appropriate leave or a rushed return to work is likely to exacerbate psychological distress and subsequently impact work performance, which inevitably results in significant costs to workplaces and society.

However, Quebec's example of maternity leave for mothers in cases of late perinatal deaths illustrates that a uniform and accessible measure can help promote a healthier and more sustainable return to work.

Therefore, our research leads us to recommend the provision of paid leave for all parents experiencing a perinatal death. In addition, parents who are already on maternity, paternity or parental leave at the time of the death should not have their benefits interrupted. In this regard, our research data strongly supports Bill C‑222.

Better support for parents experiencing a perinatal death entails many benefits—for parents, by enabling them to properly recover; for workplaces, by ensuring employees function better upon their return to work; and for society in general, by reducing the significant costs associated with mental health disabilities.

Thank you for your attention. I will be happy to answer your questions later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Meunier.

Next we'll go with Ms. Venditti for five minutes.

[Allison Venditti, Human Resources Professional, As an Individual]

I just want to start by saying thank you to the Chair and the committee for having me here today. My perspective is going to be a little different from the ones you've seen from other people.

My name is Allison Venditti. I'm a certified HR professional and a certified HR leader. I have over 20 years of HR experience in most industries, from logging to manufacturing to retail to health care. I've seen most different programs that have been rolled out. In addition to recruitment and retention, I have and will continue to develop leave programs. My expertise lies in short-term, long-term and parental leave.

I will say that helping someone go on maternity leave is one of the highlights of my job. You get to have a party, everybody gets excited, we hire a replacement and we wait with bated breath so that we can send an email to everybody when they tell us the baby is here.

If that part is the highlight, I will tell you that getting a phone call from someone that they've lost a baby is the exact opposite. After getting that phone call and having to let the team know and the people you've worked with for 20 years know, everybody is saying, “What do we do?” We don't know.

Supporting someone who is not only grieving, but also having to navigate where they fit in is very difficult and not something that HR has the power to do. Helping someone decide whether they go on sick leave benefits or how they want to manage them—even if they call us—is not something we are able to do. As an HR professional, I can only guide employees.

Many workplaces do not have short- and long-term disability, though I'm glad to see that Ms. Hamill's does. That is not an option for a lot of employees.

Currently when someone loses a baby, as you've heard, they're removed from maternity leave and asked to move to EI sickness benefits. For many people, that involves having to go in person to a Service Canada location, along with phone calls, reporting, answering questions and updating your employer. Then there's not knowing if you're going to be accepted into these leaves and having to report every two weeks why you are still on sick leave benefits. Having to tell someone every two weeks that your baby has died is completely unnecessary and cruel.

If the paperwork isn't done correctly, the employer has to try to coach the employee. If it isn't done, we have to make a phone call to them to say that they're no longer on approved leave, and we have to figure out how to bring them back. The replacement has questions, managers don't know what to do and nobody knows what to say.

I have spent hundreds of hours trying to make sure that our valuable employees continue to feel valued and trying to make sure that this works for them and they indeed come back to us, which is what we want. This bill fixes that. Pure and simple, it fixes that. As a bill for parents, it's the right move; as a bill for employees, it's the right move; and as a bill for employers, I'm telling you it is the right move.

I want to spend my time making workplaces better. I want to spend my time making workplaces more efficient and more human, and this bill will let me do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Venditti.

We'll now begin the first round of six minutes with Ms. Falk.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

To our witnesses, thank you.

Ms. Hamill, thank you. I know it takes courage to come to committee to begin with, let alone to be vulnerable. I want to thank you for being willing to be so courageous in such a vulnerable time. Every time you share your story, you are being revictimized in a way. It brings up raw emotion.

I'm so sorry that this all happened during COVID. I had a baby in 2021 as well. I'm in a very rural riding and ended up having to be airlifted to the nearest hospital, which was three hours away. I had some experience in a neonatal centre during that terrible time. We couldn't even touch our babies. I am so sorry that this was the experience you had to navigate through in a very lonely place.

I'm very sorry as well about the experience you had to go through with Service Canada, a very bureaucratic, administrative place, which Ms. Venditti is probably familiar with. It isn't necessarily understanding, warm, friendly or compassionate. From a mother to a mother, I'm sorry, but I am so thankful that you have come here to share your story.

I spoke a little about this. I don't know if you're following the proceedings at all, but at the last committee meeting, we had the Cormiers here. MP Richards had a motion, a few parliaments back, to study this exact issue, and I had the privilege and opportunity to be on this committee at that time. The committee had robust recommendations. I was shocked at the stuff I was hearing.

One of the things the Cormiers said has shaped me as a parliamentarian: Compassion needs to be administered at every level of government, especially when we are here to serve the people and the departments are here to serve Canadians. That has really shaped me. I just want to emphasize the importance of sharing your testimony and your story, because that matters.

I will note that when we did that study, this committee had several recommendations that we sent to the government. The government then had a response. The government has known about these situations for a long time. They tabled a response on June 7, 2019. That was a long time ago.

From your conversations with other parents who might be in a similar situation, would you say their experiences with Service Canada were similar to yours?

[Lily Hamill]

I agree. It's been tricky. I was lucky that the people I spoke to were more empathetic than the ones Ms. Cormier spoke to, but I obviously overwhelmed the first person I spoke to. The second that I said my child had died, I could tell there was panic on the other end of the line. She went to get someone else. Then I had to re-explain the story. I knew I needed to tell them. It was then, “You have already accrued a $300 debt”. That was the hard part.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Did you have to pay for that?

[Lily Hamill]

I did.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

You had to pay for that.

When you did that, was it just, “Here's the money”, or did they deduct it from child benefits received for another child?

[Lily Hamill]

I think they would have deducted it, but I just paid it back in order to be done with it. Everything I did in that time was whatever was quickest, fastest and easiest, just to get it off my plate.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Afterwards, were there any issues, or was that it?

[Lily Hamill]

That, luckily, was it for us. With HR at my work, it was very easy to get on short-term disability. It was the same for my husband.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

When I look at the report from the government at the time, in 2019—the Liberal government—I see that it specifically mentions that parents could access other benefits instead of looking at bereavement leave. I'm so sorry that we're doing this again. I very much hope that your story and your experience.... I know it's not for naught. Your sharing this information and your story is going to make a difference.

At the end of the day, this bill has to move forward. The government needs to give it a royal recommendation so that we can help families like yours, because there are others. We learned the other day that there are 1,600 additional families per year. Any way that we're able to make life better for bereaved, grieving parents and families matters.

Again, I just want to thank you so much for sharing your story and your testimony today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Falk.

Ms. Koutrakis, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing before us today.

Ms. Hamill, thank you for sharing your very personal and tragic story. You have my sincere condolences.

I'm a parent and grandparent. I can't even begin to imagine the pain that someone goes through when they lose a child and then have to fight or go through the bureaucratic process. In many ways, I share my colleague's comments—we need to do better. We're hoping that with the passage of this bill, this is exactly what we're going to be doing.

There is no question that more training is needed. I used to be in the finance industry, and I used to lead teams of 200 people or so. Dealing with finances is not always a very high emotional IQ area because you're dealing with people's wealth. One thing I made sure of was that the people I was leading had the adequate training they needed to deal with such sensitive issues, to be more human and to be very mindful of the questions that were being asked at the appropriate time.

You have my sincere apologies that you had to experience that. I apologize to any parent who has had a similar experience. We're hoping that with this bill we're going to do better.

Based on your experience, do you feel that the amount of leave proposed in this bill would provide parents with meaningful time to process their loss, or do you think additional flexibility might be needed?

[Lily Hamill]

I'm actually not sure how much time is proposed in the bill.

Personally, I was off for around 11 months. My husband was off for longer. He works in emergency services, so his work was more triggering—to hear those phone calls.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Did you find that the amount of time and understanding that you received from your employers was meaningful and really made a difference for you at the time?

[Lily Hamill]

It was. My employer was so easy to work with. They helped me work within a step-back program, so I didn't return to full-time work immediately.

Stepping back into the real world was wildly difficult. You felt you were being looked at. You felt very “other” than everyone else.

While I still don't know who knew what at what time when I returned to work.... There were new employees I didn't know from when I went off. It was weird. You don't want to bring up this land mine so that you're now caring for someone else's shock about your personal life, and that can make it hard. You also don't want to not mention your child, because they were there and have shaped who you are.

It's a weird spot. Having a bit more distance from the day really did help...practice talking about it and getting used to this new life.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Ms. Venditti, from an employer's perspective from being in HR and having heard the testimony, do you think this bill addresses some of the issues that would help employers deal with this type of situation better? In your opinion, what more could this bill address with regard to how employers should handle such very difficult issues?

[Allison Venditti]

This bill does a wonderful job of addressing the very real issue that we have to deal with. In terms of Ms. Hamill's testimony, unfortunately for me, I've done this for 20 years, and I can't count on all my fingers and toes how many times this has happened. It is not a one-off thing.

The bill does a wonderful job. This is exactly what employers want so we can focus on our employees, focus on being great employers and focus on making sure that our employees have an experience where they say, “My employer was there, and they were great. I'm happy to come back, and they did everything they could.”

If we're not doing all the things I mentioned and trying to help them figure out where Service Canada is, we can focus on making this experience better for our employees. I don't think there's anything else this bill could do other than the very wonderful and real thing it would do for a lot of families, which is stop this bureaucratic nonsense.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Meunier, do you have any comments to add regarding the two questions I previously asked Ms. Hamill and Ms. Venditti? I think it would be helpful to hear your comments on the topics your research has covered, so that we can understand how we might make this bill even better for parents.

[Sophie Meunier]

The testimony we've heard this morning is very similar to what we've heard on our end through the research projects we've conducted with hundreds of parents. Getting a respite or time off is sometimes really difficult and requires administrative procedures that can be burdensome. Those procedures add to the psychological distress of parents, who are already going through a difficult situation. This is very common; it's not just anecdotal. It is quite widespread among the parents we met. For example, they don't have access to the maternity leave that can be granted when a death occurs after a certain point in time, as is the case in Quebec.

We note that there is a lot of variability from workplace to workplace. Some people are fortunate enough to have employers who are more understanding or who provide better conditions. An employee can sign a leave agreement with their employer, but not all employees have access to that. It's still very unequal. I think the bill would allow for more consistency in that regard.

One aspect that hasn't been discussed yet, but is something we've noticed when conducting our research projects, is that what might be helpful is for the leave to be flexible. We've talked about the length of the leave, but the timing of when the leave is taken also needs to be considered. Grief is not necessarily linear; it doesn't necessarily follow a straight path over time. There may be moments that trigger certain symptoms of grief, such as the child's birthday. Parents told us that it would be nice if they could split up this leave or take it at a time that is most important to them. So that's something I could add to the discussion.