Human Resources Committee on March 23rd, 2026

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

Yes, of course.

We provide individual and couple support completely free of charge. We offer group sessions and workshops. We also have support groups to help with the post-loss pregnancy. Let's be clear: a mother who has lost a pregnancy or an infant or a father whose partner is pregnant again experiences a huge amount of anxiety. That, too, is an issue. We help those families, and we have a sponsorship program where parents who have experienced a loss are trained and then paired with grieving parents to support and guide them. We do that kind of matching.

We are also very active when it comes to providing training. Last year, we trained more than 270 professionals, and I'll tell you something: professionals, health professionals for the most part, tell us they aren't equipped to deal with the issue. They want better tools because these situations happen all too often. What's more, their employers don't give them the time or space to get that training. It's not part of the curriculum or training requirements.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You mentioned a brief you submitted to the National Assembly of Quebec. Can you go over the key points that we, in Parliament, should take into account?

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

Yes, of course.

Basically, the members of the Table de concertation nationale sur le deuil périnatal submitted a short, three-page, brief, which Ms. Meunier and Ms. de Montigny worked on. The brief covers the types of leave available through the Quebec parental insurance plan. We are fortunate to have such a plan. I put “fortunate” in quotes, because the plan doesn't cover everything. That is why we submitted the request, to have this loss better recognized, so that fathers and parents who did not carry the child are recognized as well. That is a major gap.

We made four recommendations.

One of the recommendations that is similar or close to Bill C‑222 is to continue providing benefits to a father and mother whose child dies in the first year. That is something we requested, but unfortunately, we found out last week that the request was denied.

We are still fighting to have this essential leave recognized. That is why it was important for me to be here today. I firmly believe that if the federal government moves forward with Bill C‑222, it could spur the National Assembly of Quebec and all the other provinces to rethink their positions. To be clear, we are fortunate in Quebec to have this plan, because many other provinces don't have one. That inequality is significant and should be taken into account.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

What I take from your comments is that not giving parents the opportunity to adequately grieve their loss comes at a price. I recall Ms. de Montigny telling us more or less the same thing.

You mentioned post-traumatic stress disorder in your remarks. I took note of that.

I also noted what Mr. Samulack said. Because he didn't take the time to heal, he faced consequences later, even falling into a depression.

I'd like to use my remaining 30 seconds to ask you and Mr. Samulack to talk about the long-term effects of not taking the time to adequately heal after the loss.

[Robert Samulack]

You continue to deal with all kinds of problems. It takes a lot of time to heal after such a traumatic event.

I had burnout. I had a couple of episodes following this and it wasn't a complete.... I wasn't ready to go back, but I forced myself to go back. It was very hard. I'm not saying this very well. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Larouche.

To clarify for committee members, we do have resources to conclude the next two rounds, if it's the wish of the committee. The committee has the resources, so it would be the complete two rounds. Is this your wish?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay, we're clear that the committee has the resources to go to about 5:50, so we will conclude all the rounds.

Mr. Reynolds, you will be next. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming here. Thank you so much for all of the work that you do to support these families through, probably, the hardest times of their lives. Thank you so much for coming here and sharing your very personal stories and for contributing to this bill and helping us move this along.

My first question is for Danyelle.

What are the most common challenges that parents face when trying to return to work after experiencing the loss of a child?

[Danyelle Kaluski]

Some of the most common challenges we heard from Rachel when she shared that she had to share the story multiple times. Most workplaces don't have proper perinatal bereavement policies in place. It is something that we continue to work on with corporate and other employers. However, let's be clear: They don't have the resources. We are putting people back into the workforce full face.

As there's been conversation on it, fathers or non-birthing people don't have anything. An example of this is my husband, who went back after two weeks of leave and was expected to go right back into work full time.

Our brains don't work. Grief brain is real. The impacts on mental health are real. The burnout that Robert shared is common. Panic attacks and health issues are all very common. The challenges are physical and mental. They don't provide employers with good working people. Nobody who goes back to work after loss is in a state to be able to produce or to work effectively. You will see that a lot of people will leave. Of the employees or people we work with, at least 50% of both birthing and non-birthing people—so mothers and fathers—will change jobs within the first year of loss. There's also that job change and the retention.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I'm going to pose my next question to all of you.

In your opinion, is this bill comprehensive enough? Are there any gaps that may still leave families without support? In short, are we getting this right?

I'll ask Danyelle first.

[Danyelle Kaluski]

I think this bill is a good starting point. There's a question of, if somebody experiences a stillbirth, whether they still qualify for parental leave or whether their leave is done at 17 weeks. Also, what happens if somebody's child dies at 11 months and that person has four weeks left of leave? What happens to that family? It also doesn't work with those who experience miscarriage that is early enough that it doesn't qualify under the maternal benefits. There are still gaps that need to be looked at. It's a good starting place, but there's room for growth.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Rob.

[Robert Samulack]

I'm still questioning the wording where it's a continuation of leave. If it was on maternity leave, does that mean that after that maternity leave finishes, the parental leave then commences, or is that just it and it's done?

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Janie.

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

My question is along the same lines. My understanding is that the bill helps parents who lose a child in the first year, but does it also cover stillbirths, children who are stillborn? How far does it go, timeline-wise?

A portion of families experiencing a perinatal loss are covered, but as I said in my opening remarks, many parents who are experiencing real grief, following a miscarriage, which we just talked about, medical termination of a pregnancy or malformation, are not covered. Many, if not most, of the families our organization and many others work with are in that second group, so that concerns me.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Rachel, what are some of the trauma-informed practices that some government agencies ought to adopt when interacting with grieving parents under this new framework? You spoke about your experience and how traumatic it was dealing with government agencies after the fact. Could you offer your input there?

[Rachel Samulack]

I'm a supervisor with the government, so I have a team that I supervise, and I have never been provided with resources on what to do in case of a loss. If I have an employee who has someone who passes away, they have to go on leave. For example, my colleague's mother passed away last year. There's no booklet. There's no training. There's nothing for us, as the supervisors of employees, on what to do when they return to work.

That was my experience as well as a returning employee. There was no pamphlet given to my manager on what to say when I came back and what not to say when I came back. It's just common-sense resources. Maybe you need to go to the bathroom and cry, and that's okay, or it could be some counselling and advisory information. We have that within my department. It's making sure that employees are aware of the resources they're able and entitled to use, and it's also the fact that they won't be themselves.

I think that's the thing. We just talked about this. When you return to work, you are not the same person you were before. There's a marked difference between before and after. I think it's just being able to provide some sort of support to managers and co-workers about the fact that, after a loss, these are things you may need to look for.

Our counselling and advisory program was very helpful to me when I returned to work, but they also weren't trained in dealing with perinatal loss, so I sought out a psychologist who was specialized in perinatal loss. There's a lot of work we can do there, as employers, for our employees. We have the responsibility to provide services not just to that employee but also to our managers and our directors and the people who are supervising other people to ensure they have the best return to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

To the witnesses, I know you were scheduled until 5:30. The committee has the resources to go for another 15 or 20 minutes. Is that okay with all the witnesses appearing virtually?

I'm seeing heads nodding.

Mr. Joseph, over to you for five minutes.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I get to my questions, I want to thank all the witnesses for the specific work they do with families.

Ms. Lapointe Tremblay, you talked about the father who was denied sick leave because he wasn't the parent who had carried the child. That is absolutely appalling. It could be considered an assault on someone's moral or emotional dignity.

Would Bill C‑222 remedy a situation like that?

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

Thank you. That's a very good question. It is indeed completely immoral.

Bill C‑222 would not remedy the situation fully. As I said earlier, I think that, as a society, we have a lot of work to do to educate the public.

We need to start by saying that perinatal grief exists. That recognition alone would be a major step forward.

Our organization gets certain requests. We don't get them regularly, but we wish they came in more often. I'm talking about employers who reach out to us to request awareness training for employees whose colleague has experienced pregnancy or infant loss. That, too, makes a major difference.

However, I think that Bill C‑222 is meaningful because it recognizes that perinatal grief does indeed exist. It's a first step, but I don't think it will fix everything.

As far as the professionals go, I think a lot of work is needed on that front as well.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

All right. Thank you.

What negative consequences would the swift passage of Bill C‑222 prevent, in your view?

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

I would point to the consequences that were identified earlier, the depression, all the emotional trauma, even physical health issues and so on, that parents have to go through. In my view, just recognizing perinatal grief and saying that it is a very real thing people experience will make a big difference for families who will be entitled to additional leave. On a human level, that is only reasonable.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

All right.

In previous committee meetings, parents have asked that Bill C‑222 be passed quickly and without changes. Does that reflect what you're seeing in your work on the ground?

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

I didn't quite examine all of the provisions in Bill C‑222, but as I said earlier, we're seeing a lot of things on the ground. That is also why we submitted a short brief, with the help of professionals, researchers, and important people and stakeholders in the community who work with grieving families after the loss of a pregnancy or an infant. In the brief, we provided recommendations to the Quebec government, which, I repeat, has a plan that does not exist anywhere else in Canada. A giant step is needed to make up for what hasn't been done.