Evidence of meeting #29 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Liberal
Natilien Joseph Liberal Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Ms. Lapointe Tremblay, I want to come back to the father who was denied sick leave because he wasn't the one who carried the child.
Would you say that decision amounts to a refusal to recognize the suffering of grieving parents? Could the situation be considered psychological abuse?
Executive Director, Les Perséides, soutien au deuil périnatal
Absolutely. It happens quite frequently, I would say. That is why training is useful and necessary, precisely to recognize this loss. That happens all too often, unfortunately.
Liberal
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Two and a half minutes goes quick.
Again, I'd like to thank our witnesses for being with us today.
I listened carefully as you talked about some of the concerns and reservations you had about the bill. Mr. Samulack said it was a bit confusing. Just about everyone identified grey areas. Even you, Ms. Lapointe Tremblay, questioned certain things.
This question is for all of you.
Ultimately, should we consider broadening the scope of Bill C‑222, or should we instead pass the bill—which would be a first step—followed by a more comprehensive review of the employment insurance system, one that would cover issues not adequately dealt with in this bill?
Executive Director, Les Perséides, soutien au deuil périnatal
I'll answer, if I may.
Yes, absolutely. I think broadening the scope of Bill C‑222 is inevitable. Numerous studies already show that. In any case, you've seen it yourselves. As I said earlier, access to benefits is incredibly unequal, depending on which province the parent lives in. That's something else to consider. It's extremely important to expand access to the plan.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
It's becoming clear that it's not adequate. We met with witnesses who talked about the Quebec parental insurance plan. They showed us what a difference a longer period of paid leave would have made in the healing process and how it could have prevented worse consequences.
Ms. Kaluski, and Mr. and Mrs. Samulak, in 30 seconds, is there anything you'd like to add?
Registered Nurse, As an Individual
I would add that perfection is the enemy of good. If you have something on the table that's ready to go forward that will do something, start with that and then you can iteratively make improvements. As long as you have it in mind that there will be iterations.... If you make something and then refuse iterations later on, then it wasn't enough. If you're willing to make iterations, then start with something good.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Larouche.
We're going to end with with four minutes and four minutes.
Ms. Goodridge, you have four minutes.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
I want to thank all of the witnesses for sharing and bringing forward some very positive solutions here.
Rachel, I find that your experience, especially being a public servant, is really incredibly useful to this committee. I'm just wondering, with the last bit of time I have, if you have any suggestions as to how you think the public service could do things better for employees, how it could do things better for the public at large and perhaps how it could do things better for supervisors who are trying to navigate this space. Any suggestions you have would be really greatly appreciated.
As an Individual
It's mandatory as a supervisor that we take courses on the Financial Administration Act and that we take courses on all sorts of things. Everyone deals with loss. We will all deal with loss at some point in our lives, so having information provided to the employer and to employees about loss in general would be very helpful, such as how to have an employee return to work from loss.
There was someone at work who also lost a baby, and she was working on a pamphlet, but it shouldn't be something off the corner of the desk of an employee that provides this information to managers and other employees. That's one of the things. We need to make this type of material mandatory as an HR requirement for employers on how to handle employees coming back to work after they've had a loss and how to be a compassionate person. You're a person talking to a person. You're not the government talking to a person. We have to remember that the person we're talking to is also someone who may have dealt with loss in their own life, so just take that into consideration.
The other thing is the training of employees who are on the other end of the receiving line, the CRA, for example, or Service Canada, to make sure that they are sensitive to the needs of parents who are calling in, and then also make that process streamlined. Right now, you have to call them, and you have to send in a death certificate. There must be a way for a coroner to send in a death certificate. I don't know, it just seems weird to me that, as the mom, I went back to work and then had to provide a death certificate. It's weird. It's very awkward. It's also uncomfortable for parents in general. It's not something that I feel is the best use of their time and may be something that stirs up a lot of emotions. Instead of having a birth certificate, I should not be having to send in this death certificate. That's one of the other things.
The third thing, I think, is what you guys are doing right now, which is giving this time and space, because it impacts all Canadians. One in four Canadians lose a pregnancy. This is something that is really important. We have seen this in the past. We've worked with MP Richards on this in the past and, within the last 10 years, we have seen major improvements.
Thank you to all of you for the time that you've put into this study, for talking to witnesses and for hearing these stories. I think that is the most important thing that you can do as a government, make sure that change is happening and that change is happening on the ground now. Thank you.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
I want to say that sunshine is the best disinfectant. Most of these things aren't born, or at least in my little rose-coloured-glasses world, out of maliciousness. Most of these failed processes are simply because, frankly, we haven't had enough women sitting at a lot of these tables who have gone through some of these things first-hand. Therefore, they're not necessarily questioning some of these really complicated processes and why they're set up this way. It becomes this space where “it's not my problem; it's someone else's problem,” because no one's advocating for it, and by the time you get through that, you don't really want to retraumatize yourself by trying to fix it. You just move on to the next thing, and that's what a lot of busy moms have to deal with.
Our commitment, from the Conservatives, is that we're going to continue talking about these conversations that are really uncomfortable for a lot of people and bringing up these conversations, because this is not just a small problem that has a small solution. What we've discovered is a much larger problem that has many pieces that are going to need to be put into place to make sure that for most Canadians going through this unbearable pain, the problem gets solved.
I really want to thank every one of you guys.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Goodridge.
We now go to Ms. Desrochers for four minutes.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses who are with us today to share their stories and difficult experiences. Thank you as well for the work you do with families and for your advocacy in recent years to find a solution to this important issue.
My first question is for the three of you.
As a supervisor, Ms. Samulack, you've worked with a number of employers, and you hear the stories of the families you help. Once the bill is passed—we are confident that it will be—would it be a good idea to conduct an awareness campaign, to provide training and to create a tool box? What would employers think of that? What should be included?
I know we don't have a lot of time, but could you give us the broad strokes?
Perhaps Ms. Lapointe Tremblay can go first.
Executive Director, Les Perséides, soutien au deuil périnatal
Yes, employers would of course welcome that. They need it because, as we've pointed out, employers are at a loss and feel ill-equipped. They don't know what to say or do, so it would be helpful to have a tool that tells them what to say and what to do, and explains what perinatal grief is and the effects it can have, such as trouble concentrating. We haven't talked about this, but it's also important to keep in mind. When a parent who has experienced pregnancy or infant loss goes back to work, they're not the same. They are completely different, so it's important for the employer to consider a gradual return to work.
Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Pregnancy, Infant & Child Loss Support Centre
Yes, I agree with what was being said, as well as with having a tool box that links all of these beautiful organizations that are providing support. In doing my research for this bill, I had no idea that Quebec and Saskatoon had a program. We need a space where families and employers can access everything we are doing, because each province is doing something. There is a way we can create this. Ontario has one program that everyone knows about. It's called PAIL. No other province across Canada has that. It's somewhere people can access the resources they need.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you. That's an excellent suggestion.
Rachel or Robert, do you wish to add anything?
As an Individual
The other thing we need to think about here is that we need to make resources available not just in English and French. Those are our languages in Canada, but there are, as we talked about, new families coming to Canada. For example, in our case, most families who have bilateral renal agenesis come from abroad. They don't know until their baby is born at the hospital and passes away before it's born or just after it's born, because they don't have the same prenatal care in those other countries.
We should make sure that we have things available in other languages and take into consideration that these families that are coming in don't know how to navigate our health care system. We have a hard time and I was born in Canada. We need to make sure we have advocates there who can also take care of those families who are coming in and may not know how to use the system and what supports are available to them.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you.
I would like to ask my question and you can reply by email, because I don't know how much time there is left.
We talked earlier about how grief, for those who grieve, is not linear. It comes and goes. You think you're okay and then six months later or a year later, something happens. In the implementation of this, what would a program look like concretely? How would we make this more flexible, so that you could come in and out, determine for how long and all of those things? I know there's no time today, but I'd love to hear via email if that's possible.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
To the witnesses, if you could provide a response to Madame Desrochers' question by email, it would be appreciated. She wanted something comprehensive in order to think about it.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
I'm just looking for some thoughts about...so we can start thinking about what we want.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Sure. If you want to respond to the question from Madame Desrochers, you can do it now. We'll begin with—