Human Resources Committee on May 7th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

We now move to Ms. Roberts, for five minutes.

Ms. Roberts, you have the floor.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We all live on a budget. If you don't get your paycheque on time, how do you pay your bills?

What would you say to seniors who haven't received their OAS payments?

[Cliff Groen]

Certainly, paying Canadians is absolutely essential. Paying them on time is absolutely critical. That is why when we successfully implemented the program back in March 2025, migrating 7.4 million Canadians onto the new platform was absolutely essential.

There have been active offers to any Canadian who has experienced a delay to contact Service Canada, and we will prioritize anyone who has seen any type of payment delay.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

My question is very simple. How do I explain to seniors who call me why they haven't received their paycheque? There are 85,000 seniors claiming that there was a delay. As far as I'm concerned, this system was a failure, just like the Phoenix system was a failure.

Did you consult the staff prior to purchasing the Cúram system?

[Cliff Groen]

As part of the overall planning for the project and the procurement process, there was extensive consultation. There were dozens upon dozens of engagement sessions with staff across the country in terms of their requirements for the new system and how to effectively proceed. That was an absolutely fundamental part of the overall planning process.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Groen, the letters I received, and my colleagues received the same letters, are from employees of the department saying that they're continually working overtime and that it has taken a big toll on their mental health.

How much overtime has been paid to staff to ensure that we correct these problems?

[Cliff Groen]

Any concern related to mental health is certainly a priority for me. What I would say is that no employees are mandated and required to work overtime. However, overtime is offered to employees to assist us with managing our overall workload.

Regarding specific numbers, I'd be able to provide you with specific numbers subsequent to this meeting.

There's no requirement that individuals work overtime, but those who are interested.... Many of our employees are very interested in working overtime to help serve Canadians.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

That's not the information we were provided. We were told that it was mandated. I stand corrected. Maybe you could explain that later on.

When a senior's payments are late, stress is caused. How many more backlogs are there in order to ensure that these issues are corrected in an efficient manner?

[Cliff Groen]

Currently, as of the end of April, there are 50,000 Canadians who did not receive their payment within the first month of entitlement, which is what our service standard is for the old age security program. That number has continued to go down over the last number of months. That number continues to evolve, because we pay people, but then another month passes and there are more individuals who become eligible.

We are committed, and we are seeing results that continue to drive that overall inventory down.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

You have 50,000 seniors. What is the time frame? Have they been delayed a month? Have they been delayed nine months?

I have seniors calling me saying, “I can't pay my bills. I'm going to get kicked out of my rental. Who's going compensate me for that?”

I have a second question. One of the comments that was made was that GIS payments were made to individuals who did not deserve it. How much money was overpaid to those individuals, and how are you going to recover those funds?

[Cliff Groen]

I'll answer your first question.

The length of delay certainly varies from individual to individual. We do track and monitor that. It depends on lots of different factors. Sometimes there are delays because we are missing information from the client and we need to follow up with them. Other times we have the information, but it's a question of being able to complete the transactions for those clients.

The GIS is an income-dependent program that also depends on other factors, such as change in marital status. That happens fairly often, which can affect individuals' entitlement to benefits. Those changes can have an impact on whether they're entitled. That can result in overpayment, or also underpayment, if a situation changes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I have very little time. How much money was overpaid? Do we have a number?

[Cliff Groen]

I'm trying to understand the precision of your question, because there are lots of reasons for different overpayments. Regarding your question about how that is recovered, there is an offset of someone's ongoing entitlement based on their ability to pay to ensure that people receive the amount they are entitled to.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

You agree that errors have been made with the current system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Roberts, your time is well over.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have the floor for five minutes, Mr. Joseph.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to lighten the mood, because for the past little while, I've only heard people trying to make political hay. I'll address Mr. Cliff Groen and we'll talk about delays.

First, what has caused these delays? Does it have anything to do with the fact that some people submit forms with major mistakes, such as poorly written names and addresses or boxes that are checked when they shouldn't be? In my opinion, if that happens, then the file cannot be processed, and the form is sent back. Can you tell us about that?

The opposition is giving Quebeckers and Canadians the impression that Canada is broken. We need to stop disparaging Canada. We live in a great and beautiful country, and it's a great place to call home. It's time we stopped scaring Quebeckers and Canadians by saying that Canada is broken. I want to reassure people that Canada is not broken.

Can you tell us a little bit about the delays? Are they caused by poorly completed application forms?

Take as much time as you need to explain that.

[Cliff Groen]

Thank you very much for that question.

Old age security is the oldest statutory program that provides benefits for Canadians. One of the biggest issues we used to have was related to the fact that the system and the process were entirely paper based. All claims were paper-based and as a result, we had a lot of challenges processing claims efficiently. Occasionally, as you have pointed out, we'd have difficulty reading clients' handwriting. We also had more significant issues related to incomplete benefit claims. When that happens, we have to follow up with clients and request additional information.

The new system is digital and people can submit their claims online. As such, we have the necessary controls to ensure that a submitted claim is complete. That really helps us to provide better service. One of our biggest challenges right now is the utilization rate of this online application, which is very low. We're therefore making Canadians aware that the old age security program finally has a modern system designed for the 21st century, and they can use it to submit their claims. A digital system that allows people to submit their claims online helps us to better serve Canadians.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

We have a duty to protect our seniors. They worked their whole lives to build this country and it's our turn to reciprocate.

Simply put, are these delays linked to Cúram?

[Cliff Groen]

I think it's very important to emphasize that the delays have not been caused by any inefficiency with this system. Unfortunately, delays are caused by a variety of reasons, and that also happens with other programs and services that we manage. Four years ago, we had long wait times with passport issuance. Last year, as part of the passport program, we exceeded our service standard, and 92% of Canadians received their passports on time.

Unfortunately, delays are likely to occur when it comes to benefits under these big programs that involve interactions with millions of Canadians, but I can assure you that this has nothing to do with the Cúram system failing to operate as intended. It is working properly. With regard to the accuracy of payments, our objective is to ensure that at least 95% of payments are accurate. We are still meeting this standard as well.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Why was the benefits delivery modernization program needed?

[Cliff Groen]

It was essentially because there was a significant risk that the system would stop working, and millions of Canadians would not get the benefits they need. It was critical. We could not afford to rely on a 60-year-old system to deliver these benefits, which are extremely important.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Groen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Joseph.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.