Human Resources Committee on Oct. 6th, 2026

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

There was another thing that piqued my curiosity. You said that the Red Seal certification program needs to be tweaked but not overhauled. What does that mean?

If we don't have enough time, I'd be—

[Sean Strickland]

I'm happy to follow up.

Some of the examples that Martin and I have given are around how certain trades are recognized in some jurisdictions. Not all trades are Red Seal trades. Why aren't they Red Seal trades?

In the testing process, there are things at the edges that need to happen to improve the Red Seal system, but overall, generally it works. It works quite well. We're really happy to have a Red Seal system in Canada. The alternative is much worse in terms of moving workers across the country and having them comply with different jurisdictions and their requirements for hours, licensing, etc. The Red Seal works.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Koutrakis. That concludes our first hour.

Thanks to the witnesses for appearing and taking questions from committee members.

We'll suspend for a couple of moments while we transition.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The committee is back in session. Order in the room, please.

I would like to welcome the witnesses for the second hour. Before I do so, for the new witnesses appearing, you have the option of participating in today's meeting in the official language of your choice. Make sure that you are on the correct channel if you're in the room, to participate in the official language of your choice.

For those here virtually, please click on the globe icon at the bottom of your Surface and choose the official language of your choice. If there is an interruption in the interpretation, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it is corrected.

I have one other point. Please direct all questions through the chair and wait until I identify you by name before proceeding.

In the second hour, we have two witnesses. We have, from Academy Canada, Lisa Lovelady, president and chief executive officer, appearing virtually. From Polytechnics Canada, Sarah Watts-Rynard, chief executive officer, is appearing in the room.

We'll begin with the opening statement by Ms. Lovelady.

You may begin with your opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Lisa Lovelady, President and Chief Executive Officer, Academy Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to members of the committee, as well, for the invitation to appear today.

My name is Lisa Lovelady, and I am the president and CEO of Academy Canada.

Academy Canada is a regulated career college operating in 14 locations throughout Newfoundland and Labrador since 1985. We have graduated more than 40,000 students in over 35 programs, including skilled trades programs. We provide pre-employment training in over a dozen Red Seal trades, and we also deliver apprentice-level training. Our graduates successfully complete their Red Seal exams and have rewarding careers provincially, nationally and internationally. We are incredibly proud of their achievements.

Labour mobility is critically important to our graduates as they travel to where the work is. Before they are journeypersons, our graduates are apprentices who face additional labour mobility challenges. This is unfortunate, because it's important to retain as many apprentices as possible so that they become the next generation of journeypersons.

Academy Canada is an employer of journeyperson instructors. It's not uncommon for us to use national instructor recruitment strategies to ensure that we have journeyperson instructors to teach our programs. Sometimes, especially for low-volume trades or provincially designated trades, it can be incredibly challenging to find instructors to teach the next generation of learners. Labour mobility matters to us as employers so that we can efficiently recruit qualified instructors.

We ask that the committee take the following points under consideration on the topic of establishing a national framework respecting skilled trades and labour mobility.

One, protect multiple pathways into the trades. We ask that the framework recognize equivalent competencies achieved through apprenticeship, public colleges, private career colleges, prior learning, and other legitimate pathways. Harmonization should not inadvertently turn one training model into the national default.

Two, harmonize outcomes before inputs. Equivalency should be determined primarily through demonstrable occupational competencies and learning outcomes. Requirements concerning training hours, sequencing, delivery methods and other inputs should be imposed only where they are necessary for safety.

Three, make credential recognition work for apprentices, not only certified journeypersons. Mobility problems occur before certification as well. A student who completes training in Newfoundland and Labrador and subsequently moves to Ontario should have a transparent way of knowing what training and competencies will be credited rather than potentially repeating education.

Four, do not equate harmonization with additional layers of centralized assessment. Where a provincially or territorially accredited or approved institution delivers an agreed curriculum and demonstrates that a student has achieved the prescribed competency through valid theory and practical assessments, those results should be trusted. Independent national assessment has an appropriate role for certification, but governments should demonstrate a clear educational safety or mobility benefit before imposing additional high-stakes examinations at every stage of training.

Five, create portable records of competencies. The framework could establish a common digital record showing competencies completed, assessments passed, technical training and recognized work experience.

Six, give training institution administrators a formal role in implementation. It is very good that we are consulted now, and training providers must also have a seat at the table for implementation. We have practical perspectives that will contribute to solutions that governments, regulators, unions, instructors and employers might miss.

Academy Canada strongly supports the goal of improving labour mobility for skilled tradespeople and apprentices across Canada. As you consider this framework, I encourage you to acknowledge provincially and territorially authorized training providers, properly assess the learning they deliver, recognize the competencies that apprentices have already demonstrated, preserve multiple pathways into the trades and ensure that mobility works for apprentices and journeypersons.

Before we make any requirement part of a national framework, we should ask this question: Can we demonstrate how it improves competency, safety or labour mobility? Including training provider administrators as well as instructors in ongoing conversations with other stakeholders will provide a fulsome answer to this critically important question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Lovelady.

Next is Madam Watts-Rynard from Polytechnics Canada, for up to five minutes, please.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard, Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada]

Thank you for the invitation to provide testimony to support your study of Bill C-266.

I represent an association that is made up of Canada's public polytechnics and institutes of technology. These institutions deliver hands-on training and experiential learning to nearly half of the college population.

While polytechnics offer training in occupations well beyond the skilled trades, my members are responsible for delivering apprenticeship technical training across 49 Red Seal skilled trades and countless other provincially recognized skilled trades. Each year, 70% of apprentices who are actively progressing towards certification attend a polytechnic institution to do so.

As Canada moves ahead on major projects, builds its energy infrastructure and increases the availability of housing, skilled tradespeople will play a critical role. As the Canadian Armed Forces seeks to grow their numbers, trade skills are also top of mind. This puts a lot of pressure on an already constrained system to attract Canadians to skilled trades careers and ensure they get high-quality training in a timely way and are able to complete their certification efficiently.

Virtually every sector of the economy relies on the trades—advanced manufacturing, mining, energy and transportation, to name a few—and finding enough workers with the right skills in the right place at the right time is a persistent challenge. This is why, despite major investments in apprenticeship, labour mobility remains a priority. As you consider the benefits of a national framework for labour mobility in the skilled trades, there are several items to consider.

Beginning in 2013, the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship began efforts to harmonize apprenticeship training in Red Seal trades. This effort was designed to improve mobility before certification, increase completion rates and expand access by harmonizing such things as training hours and levels of training. Content sequencing, for example, was designed to enable apprentices to move between jurisdictions. This effort is substantially complete and started more than 13 years ago.

There have also been advances to recognize certifications across Canada's provinces and territories. An interprovincial agreement was signed in August 2026 to ensure that skilled trade certifications from other jurisdictions are recognized within 30 days of application. This is a significant change for tradespeople and business owners because it essentially eliminates the need for lengthy recertification processes outside of the Red Seal program. A 30-day standard enables an employer to hire tradespeople from other jurisdictions much more efficiently.

These efforts show that Canada is working to address the long-standing challenge of labour mobility in the skilled trades, and as you consider Bill C-266, I'm pleased to offer a couple of thoughts.

While labour mobility solutions have been put in place, there is little to no certainty that they will have the desired impact. This framework could act as a series of checks and balances to assess what's working well, where labour shortages persist and what additional measures might be required.

There is undoubtedly a federal role to ensuring that apprentices and certified tradespeople can apply their skills to projects of national interest and in workplaces across the country. This is even more important as long-term projects get under way and search for talent that is, frankly, already in short supply. There need to be ways to assess how substantive federal investments in the skilled trades are playing out across the country.

Somewhat beyond the scope of this bill but important to delivering on its spirit is data. There's an opportunity to develop much richer data about the skilled trades. For example, the registered apprenticeship information system offers a delayed snapshot of registrations and completions, but information about what happens midstream is missing, and there's simply no way to be sure why apprentices stall and drop out. A framework that requires regular reporting may prompt better data collection and a broader understanding of how we can support trades training and labour mobility.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Watts-Rynard.

We'll now begin our six-minute opening round of questioning with Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses. Both of you represent institutions that are key parts of the trades training ecosystems. We need to recognize the critical role played by polytechnics and by private career colleges.

It's my view that there has been a lack of recognition and appreciation on the part of the government of the role played by these kinds of institutions. We see this in various aspects of government policy.

I'm going to start with you, Ms. Watts-Rynard. I know you had some comments after the last federal budget about proportions and where funding has been directed. I wonder if you can speak to the role of polytechnics and some of the concerns you've had in the past about decisions the government has made with respect to supporting or not supporting polytechnics in Canada.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Really, I think our main challenge, particularly if we're talking about the skilled trades, is that the federal government has not necessarily recognized the critical role that public institutions play in training. A lot of funding has gone in the way of union training, another important piece of the training infrastructure, but we've sort of left it to the provinces and territories to figure out the training infrastructure. We're not going to be able to get the workforce we need without these institutions all playing the same role of moving folks into the workforce.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Could you just quickly comment on the research funding issue as well?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

The research funding issue is something different. Certainly, we see a large portion, 97% of all federal funding in research, going to the university sector, and very little going to institutions that play a critical role in bringing industry R and D into commercialization.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

More recently, we've heard members of the government say verbally some good things about addressing inequalities, stigmas and issues around the perception of trades work. In terms of funding and specific decisions of the government, it seems that there are still a lot of gaps in policy.

You've spoken to the perspective of the public institution. I'll turn now to Ms. Lovelady. I had the honour of touring an Academy Canada facility just last week, facilitated by MP Carol Anstey, who's been a great champion of Academy Canada in particular. She highlighted the important role in Newfoundland and Labrador played by your institution and the reality when you have government policies moving against private career colleges: Where does the government expect young people who want to study in the trades to go? You're the ones on the ground who are providing this training.

In the last budget, we saw a decision of this government—one that this committee wanted to see reversed but hasn't yet been reversed—that denies student grant funding to students attending institutions like yours. If you go to a university for any program, you are eligible for a student grant, but if you go to a private career college, the government is saying that, outside of a few narrow exceptions, you're not eligible for that grant anymore.

I wonder if you could speak to that policy and the impact it could have on trades training.

[Lisa Lovelady]

The issue regarding access to Canada student grants would impact students completing training of a longer duration than our trades programs. It's not a direct hit, I would say, on students who choose to do our pre-employment trades, which tend to be around 37 weeks in duration. However, we are actively applying for the exemptions for the 14 programs we have for students who would be impacted and miss out. We're prepared to put the work in to ensure that they have access to the same types of grants that they would receive if they were to go to our public college, with which we are partners.

Funding is best if it follows the student in all training institutions that are approved and rigorously regulated by the provinces. We work really hard to make sure that we're providing quality education and that students have a great experience. If they need assistance securing work afterwards, we're here to help them as well.

We're also excluded from many of these funding opportunities that the union trade schools enjoy. We're partners with our locals as well.

I would like to point out that in Newfoundland and Labrador, the union trade schools, the public college and Academy Canada all offer the exact same programming. It's a provincial plan of training. My welder program is identical to the welder programs at the public or union training schools. It's governed under the same private training act and regulations as the union training schools.

It is tough when you see opportunities pass you by because you don't qualify to bid on them. However, we persevere, and many of our employers are driving apprenticeships because they're not part of the big projects. They're working on going to people's homes and fixing their electrics or plumbing. When the big projects come looking for JPs, our students have come up through apprenticeship systems and through small and medium businesses that hire our graduates, so we do make an impact, and we're happy to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis and Ms. Lovelady.

Mr. Joseph, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses and all my colleagues here.

I'm a refrigeration service engineer myself. I have a diploma of vocational studies, or DVS, which I received in France a long time ago. When I arrived here in Quebec, I too faced mobility-related barriers. In 2007, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls even came to Quebec and concluded an agreement with Quebec on mutual credential recognition. At one point, I decided to move on to something else. That's not what we want for Albertans or Ontarians who want to go and work in Quebec. We want them to be able to.

In the first panel, we talked a lot about needs, but we also talked about benefits. I know there are benefits for workers. I'm not an expert in that, but you are. Can you list the benefits for workers? We need to talk about that. I know they exist, but what are they?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

I was listening in on the previous panel, so I followed the conversation around the differences in the labour markets in each province and territory and the challenges those have. The reason that people leave the trades is often that the work is not consistent. That has everything to do with the economic cycle. When somebody is unable to work in their occupation—this is well beyond the skilled trades, but it's certainly true here—and a project ends and that opportunity is finished, we want to find another place to apply those skills. The importance to workers is consistent employment and the ability to go where their skills are required, rather than facing a situation where their certifications are not recognized and their skills are perhaps not recognized and then they're put in a position of having to decide that maybe they should do a different kind of work.

This is one of the really big challenges we have, particularly with apprentices. Getting them their very first job is fantastic, but if we don't think about progression and completion, we will lose people. We'll be stuck at a 50% completion rate and still be talking about the real constraints when it comes to a sufficient number of workers to undertake the projects that need to be undertaken.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I know we need to make the transition easier, simpler and faster. What could be done, Ms. Watts‑Rynard?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

I like the idea of there being solid data on what trades are required in what major projects. I don't believe it is possible for us to develop a sufficient number of people to take care of Canadian Armed Forces requirements, to take care of housing requirements and to take care of major projects. The reality is that the number of workers we need is astronomical, but the requirement is not to have all of those people in one place at one time. The solution is understanding and trying to put in place systems that recognize where the requirement is, who's available and then how we can support mobility.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Ms. Lovelady, I know that the government has a role to play and will definitely continue to play it.

What role can digital tools and apprenticeship registries play in job skills recognition and worker mobility?

[Lisa Lovelady]

It's becoming what is expected. My daughter is a first-year electrical apprentice. We had to pick up her logbook, and it was paper. She's taking that to the job site, and she needs to get her hours signed off on it. I asked her, “What do you think about that, that you have a paper logbook?” She said, “Well, I just hope I don't lose it, get it dirty or somehow accidentally destroy it.” She's 18 years old, and it was strange to her that this wasn't digital so she could access it on her phone and take it with her wherever she goes.

I too have lived experience with credential recognition. I taught at a post-secondary school in England for five years, and my Canadian teaching credentials weren't recognized. I had to challenge exams and recertify.

The more portable your credentials are, the easier everything becomes, so you're not having to keep track of all the bits of paper and make sure that everything is in one place. Anything we can do to make it easier for the apprentice, the journeyperson and the employer will help with efficiency and productivity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Joseph.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both witnesses for helping us consider this bill.

Ms. Lovelady and Ms. Watts‑Rynard, you do important education work with your respective organizations, Academy Canada and Polytechnics Canada. Naturally, I listened carefully to what you said. In Quebec, we are working hard on the education system, which falls under the jurisdiction of the National Assembly.

I'm going to ask you a question, but first I'd like to hear your thoughts on the initial reactions to Bill C‑5 last spring, I believe, when we were talking about the labour issue. Back then, we were saying that we wanted to improve labour mobility between the provinces and Quebec.

At the time, Quebec's minister responsible for Canadian relations and labour initially reacted by saying that he wanted to defend jurisdictions and ensure that the federal government did not encroach on Quebec's. Let me remind you that labour, like education, also falls under Quebec's jurisdiction. However, in his opinion, we also had to avoid duplication, an aspect that we haven't discussed much here. He insisted that federal training funds be channelled through existing structures and bilateral agreements between Quebec and Canada, for example, and that programs not be created that might duplicate existing services.

Ms. Watts‑Rynard and Ms. Lovelady, from an education standpoint, could such a bill create duplication?