Human Resources Committee on Oct. 6th, 2026

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

There's always a risk of duplication, but when you are trying to undertake projects of national interest, it is important to think from a federal perspective. It is about Canadians being able to move to different parts of the country at different times to undertake work. In all cases, education is the jurisdiction of the provinces, and I'm very happy to see the provinces working together on things like certification recognition across the country. That has not always been the case, but in our reality, we have to be able to move east to west in a way that is efficient. That is where the federal government can play a role, not to duplicate responsibility for education, but to ensure that certifications are recognized and movement of people is not constrained by borders.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Do you have anything to add, Ms. Lovelady, on the risk of duplication?

[Lisa Lovelady]

Yes. Thank you.

It's incredibly important. The constitutional ability of provinces and territories to be responsible for education is paramount. The framework would not have to worry about duplication if it's focused more on a common language guidance, providing a national overview while respecting the provinces' and territories' responsibilities of overseeing education. I think it can be designed in such a way that it would be in concert with rather than a duplication of what we have in place. It would have to be intentionally designed, absolutely.

It's critically important. In Newfoundland and Labrador, there are seven members of Parliament representing the province. If control of education goes to the federal level, I worry about what that might do in terms of the decisions being made that impact us that may be solving a problem in another part of the country but are actually creating problems for us here at home. That's my biggest fear with things like that.

I do support a framework, though, for a common language. The Red Seal trades are less of a problem, in my experience, in terms of trying to recruit and hire qualified instructors. It's when we have blue seal. In Newfoundland and Labrador, blue seal doesn't mean the business courses; a blue seal means a provincially designated trade. I have been through the ringer trying to secure a power sport technician instructor to teach my students on a first nations reserve. We succeeded. It was incredibly challenging because of the labour mobility issues that we faced, but we got there in the end.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You find it hard to recruit people in some cases.

We also heard about the issue of the bill's timelines, which may be too short to allow for effective implementation. Ms. Watts‑Rynard or Ms. Lovelady, in a few seconds, can you tell me if this is something that worries you?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Efficient implementation is going to be incredibly critical.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

Ms. Falk, go ahead for five minutes.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to thank both of our witnesses for taking the time to be here.

Trades work is very important work, as it is everything. It is our infrastructure. If we're going to talk about building infrastructure in this country, we must have the labour force to do that.

I want to touch on something that Ms. Lovelady brought up. I represent a rural neck of the woods, but oil and gas and ag are very prominent, and those are trades all over. A lot of the time, students where I live will travel three hours to the biggest centre to go to school, but it gets a little more complicated when you have rural and remote areas, especially for first nations.

A lot of our colleges, especially in Saskatchewan, are trying to keep people close to home, especially when people are going back to trade school. A lot of times, they have started life already. They got a degree and found out they couldn't get a job with the degree they went to school for. Now they are going to a trade school. There are some of the social aspects that have to be taken into consideration so that students have access to school.

I wanted to touch on that because it's an important point that I think the committee should keep in mind.

I want to ask both of you, since you're both in education, what apprenticeship completion rates look like.

I'll start with you, Ms. Watts-Rynard.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Completion rates depend on the trade and depend on the region, but if you look overall, completion is about 50%.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Ms. Lovelady.

[Lisa Lovelady]

I'll build on that.

If you need to have your journeyperson status in order to pull a permit—i.e., you're an electrician—there's more pressure to achieve your journeyperson status if you want to have your own business and have that ability to do these different types of work. Other trades that don't have that extra push behind them tend to have lower completion rates. It matters what certification gets you.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Would you say those would be the biggest reasons for completion not happening?

[Lisa Lovelady]

Is that for me?

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Yes. Sorry. I'm just following up on your answer.

[Lisa Lovelady]

Well, as to the biggest reasons for completion rates not happening, I would love to see data on that. I have a theory. We're part of the Atlantic harmonization project. A lot of it has been very good. However, I worry a lot about students having to write what's called “level exams”. They come into a public college like Academy Canada or a union trade school and do their apprentice level. They pass all the courses, and then they have to take an external multiple-choice exam before they can advance. Those exams are a barrier. If they're not really well written and it's a high-stakes exam happening midstream in their apprenticeship process, as an educator I don't support it. It's a risk for completion, in my opinion, but I don't have access to data to prove it.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

That's interesting. I took my power engineering. It was interesting, because all our exams were actually multiple-choice.

[Lisa Lovelady]

Yes. That's right.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Multiple-choice can be written in a very interesting way that may or may not be helpful. I would notice that just within those circles, when I was going to school, this was a barrier. Not everybody thinks that way when it comes to multiple-choice, as opposed to doing a written explanation: “Here's your question and you can write it out.”

[Lisa Lovelady]

Ideally, authentic assessment for trades work is practical assessment. That's not always realistic. The Red Seal examination is multiple-choice. I don't really have an issue with any of that. For me, it's the multiple-choice external exams they have to write between their apprenticeship levels. That is the one that breaks my heart. When students complete level four, they have to write the level exam, and then a couple of weeks later they have to write their journeyperson exam. It's just testing people to death, in my opinion.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Ms. Watts-Rynard, do you have any insight into why completion is only about 50%?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

As I said, it depends on the trade and the region, but by far the biggest issue is continuous employment.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

I'm sorry, Chair. Can I ask one quick follow-up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You can ask a quick follow-up.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Which regions in the country have lower completion?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

It depends on the trade.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Okay. It's trade-specific.