Human Resources Committee on Oct. 7th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses who are with us today, who are enlightening us with their insights and sharing their opinions and ideas. I have several comments for each of them.

I'd first like to say to Ms. Swift that, maybe surprisingly, I agree with her that there are too many government subsidies. The Bloc Québécois finds that there are too many fossil fuel subsidies in particular. In our opinion, that's an energy of the past. There isn't a proponent right now. We think the money should be invested elsewhere, including in our wood industry.

As far as jurisdictions are concerned, I don't want to see any interference in Quebec's jurisdictions over education. However, at the last meeting, we heard some very interesting testimony from a representative of the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec. According to what he told us, the youth unemployment issue isn't the same in Quebec. The education and business sectors are being entangled in a really interesting way, where study programs are tailored to the reality of work, and it becomes easier for young people to enter the workforce. In short, we could draw inspiration from the work being done there.

Mr. Nauta said a word that resonated with me, which is the issue of dignity. Of course, we're talking about unemployment. People are saying that it's more alarming in some places than it is in Quebec, as I said. The fact remains that it's still concerning, as one of the witnesses pointed out last week, because we'd like more young people to have jobs and participate in the economy. We want young people to be employed, but we've also talked a lot about crises, and that brings me to the issue of dignity.

What do you think of the social safety net that's currently in place? If young people don't have jobs, that means they're currently facing difficulties. Do you think employment insurance is doing its job right now? If not, what should be done to enable young people to keep their dignity? We want them to be able to enter the world of employment, but they also have to be able to live right now.

I'm thinking of my riding, which is a rural riding with a lot of natural resources, but also a lot of development to do. It also has characteristics that mean that some young people who work in the fishing, forestry, mining or tourism sectors simply can't make it through the end of the year and may want to leave the region. I think land use should be important for us.

I'm listening to what you have to say about this, Mr. Nauta.

[Renze Nauta]

I'll start my answer in French, but I may switch to English to be more precise.

Dignity is fundamental for everyone, but we have to also remember that dignity has several aspects.

When it comes to fundamental human dignity, that's something that can never be taken away from anyone, no matter what's done to the person or what their working or living conditions are.

At the same time, what we want is for people's living conditions and for public policy to reflect the human dignity that they hold inherently. Public policy has a very difficult balancing act to accomplish when it comes to this. On the one hand, as you say, employment insurance and other aspects of a social safety net have to be there to ensure that the living conditions of someone do reflect the dignity that the person holds by virtue of their personhood, and there are certain basic elements that everyone needs to live a dignified life.

At the same time—and this is what my remarks were trying to get at in the beginning—there's another aspect of dignity, which is the ability of a person to contribute to their community, to their neighbours and to their families, that arises out of work itself. That's something that we can't ignore either. This is where programs like the employment insurance program have sought a balance between ensuring that we're supporting people when they need it but also in a way that gives them an on-ramp back into employment.

The working while on claim program, for example, has sought to do that. It's something that I would certainly endorse and that we've recommended for the Canada disability benefit as well.

I hope that starts to answer your question a bit, in the sense that there is that balancing act to achieve.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC]

It's a question of maintaining a certain balance, then, and I imagine people don't want uniform measures either. We're talking about a reform to ensure a social safety net that enables people to change jobs when possible. However, that isn't always possible for everyone, particularly in times of crisis. We still want a workforce to remain available, because without that, it's just as difficult for the economy and for businesses. If people are encouraged to go elsewhere, that workforce will no longer be there.

Could something be done, particularly for young people, to provide them with a social safety net that enables them to stay a part of the workforce or to access it?

[Renze Nauta]

Thank you for the question.

One thing your question makes me think of is another recommendation we have in the report about the over-credentialed working class and the importance of lifelong learning. There are different kinds of unemployment, but when someone becomes unemployed because of a structural problem in the economy, because their skills are no longer needed by an industry or something like that, then it calls for a different approach.

EI might be part of it, but EI probably also needs to be paired with some support for lifelong learning. This is especially acute, given the data I was pointing to about how many institutions don't always do a very good job of preparing people for the workforce, which means that people will need more microcredentials as they go forward.

I hope this answers your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

We go now to Mr. Reynolds for five minutes.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I would like to thank the witnesses for coming here today. I really appreciate it.

Mr. Nauta, I'm a construction electrician by trade. I've been a construction electrician for 20 years. I have seen many apprentices and people coming into the building trades who are definitely over-credentialed. I've seen it countless times, so many times that I can't even count.

In your opinion, would you say that workers are coming out over-credentialed because there weren't any jobs that were available for them in their chosen field? Essentially, would you find some of our education institutions are selling a bill of bad goods?

[Renze Nauta]

I think it's effectively an issue of supply and demand: there are certain occupations where there is an oversupply of skills and others where there is an undersupply of skills.

You mentioned the skilled trades and the building trades. That's certainly where there is a shortage right now. By contrast, our report shows that there are other occupations, especially ones that formally require higher education in terms of university degrees and that kind of thing, where clearly, according to our data, which is Statistics Canada's data, there is an oversupply of those skills.

I would agree with your point in that respect, that there is an oversupply.

I would say, to the second part of your question, that my hope is to send a message to post-secondary institutions that they do need to be responding to the labour market but, even before that, I think students need to consider the reality of entering the workforce with a particular diploma or degree.

I think that what post-secondary institutions and guidance counsellors in high schools are telling students should matter to this committee and to Parliament, because it isn't necessarily setting everyone up for success. It certainly does for some people but, for others, there could be a better job done.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. Watts-Rynard, I'm alumnus of Red River College Polytechnic. I've been there a few times. As a construction electrician, that's where I got my Red Seal from.

Canada's post-secondary school system contributes to a troubling rise in unemployment among young Canadians by steering students towards universities instead of trades and technical careers. Do you find that they are steering Canadians towards universities versus technical jobs?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

I don't think that happens in post-secondary institutions; I think that's happening much earlier. My sense is even my own children, when they were going through the K-to-12 system, were encouraged not to do trades-related programming: “You're too smart for this. You should be leaving spaces in those programs for those who need them.” They were pushed toward a university route whether that was what they wanted or not. That continues to be a challenge today.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I've definitely seen that myself in the overall attitude towards skilled trades, and not just building trades but all skilled trades, including machinists and mechanics. I've definitely seen a push for that in K to 12.

What would you suggest we could do to change attitudes of society in general to say that skilled trades are not just for people who can't hack university?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

I think part of that is, during the course of the entire education journey, giving experiences with different kinds of learning and different kinds of career paths.

In terms of what the federal government might do, I mentioned earlier the Canadian apprenticeship service and providing a first-year wage subsidy to get apprentices started in the process. A big challenge with why young people choose not to go into the trades is not necessarily because they don't think these are good careers; the experience is that only 50% of the people who go into a skilled trades pathway come out with their Red Seal. That's hugely problematic. We need to incent retention and completion to try to make sure the people who do choose to go into those careers see the finish line. That's something that is offered in lots of diploma, degree and certificate programs but is exceptionally difficult when it comes to the skilled trades.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Watts-Rynard.

Thank you, Mr. Reynolds, for your insightful questions.

We'll go to Madame Desrochers for five minutes.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, for Canadians listening to us, I'd like to quickly set the record straight on what was said about the Canadian economy. I would point out that, of all the G7 countries, Canada has the highest credit rating, the lowest deficit, the lowest debt levels and the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio. That means that despite all the challenges we're currently facing, which are the same for many other countries, Canada is still doing quite well.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for sharing their recommendations with us today and pointing us to some fairly concrete solutions that we should consider. It's really appreciated.

I'm thinking of you in particular, Ms. Watts‑Rynard. You mentioned realigning apprenticeship programs and specified which sectors to focus on. According to the data you gave us, only 9% of the funding goes to college-level diploma students.

In the last five months, our new government has launched the Major Projects Office and Build Canada Homes with clear commitments and clear signals. We have a new policy to buy Canadian. With the defence investment agency, we're increasing our defence spending, including clear messaging that we need to increase our recruitment and retention in our armed forces, as well as a defence industrial strategy that's going to come out. In my opinion, all of those are really geared towards a lot of the skilled trades and supporting skilled trades employment.

Ms. Watts-Rynard and Mr. Nauta, do you think these are good enough signals to send to Canadians that these are the areas where we really need youth to go and study and will be places that will have good jobs? Do you think there's more we need to do?

I know that my colleague from the Bloc Québécois attaches importance to the issue of federal and provincial jurisdictions in education, and that we have to respect that. However, you raised a good point about the gap that exists between what students learn and what the job market needs. That's a challenge we continue to face.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

In my view, the signals are that there is a high need for skilled tradespeople, and I think that youth are hearing that.

I think about how the federal government might improve some of the programs. My son-in-law is an electrical apprentice. He is just about to go back to technical training. In my previous job, I was the executive director of the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum, so I have a strong understanding of Canada's apprenticeship system. My sense is that, when he tells me, “I can't figure out what kinds of supports are available to me while I go back to school”, that's a problem. He's 29 years old. He's a smart guy doing a difficult trade, and he is talking about trying to navigate a system that includes the Canada apprenticeship loan and employment insurance. He's asking, “How can I even afford to go back to school?”

I think the signals are there that the occupations are in high demand and are valuable careers. We do have a parity of esteem issue, but that's separate. There are probably some ways we could improve the barriers that stand between someone who starts and someone who finishes.

[Renze Nauta]

The new agencies you've listed could be necessary for the functioning of government and for moving things forward in the government, and I certainly hope they do. However, what I would say about signals to students, in terms of the workforce, is that it's most important that the markets send those signals. I'm not sure it's the best idea for government to be sending those signals, except insofar as it's trying to correct a parity of esteem issue, whereby historically or more recently, certain occupations were said to have less dignity or what have you.

I think politicians can, from their perch, speak about the importance of these other kinds of occupations, but in terms of how students and workers are making those decisions, we want that to come from the market as much as possible. That might actually involve, sometimes, getting government a bit out of the way in terms of the messaging so that there can be more room for employers to indicate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Desrochers.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have one last question for Ms. Swift, Ms. Watts‑Rynard and Mr. Nauta.

It's hard to generalize, because unemployment affects a lot of young people from various regions, living in various economic conditions. Some are also in school and aren't necessarily available for work. Of course, if they're unemployed and want to receive employment insurance, they're available for a job, but perhaps not full-time.

What are the causes that we should be addressing? As we've been saying over the past few weeks, the unemployment rate has been higher among youth for over 20 years. What should we tackle first to really make a difference?

If you don't have time to answer my question, you can send us your answer in writing.

[Renze Nauta]

I think you're right to point to the complexity of the issue, because it's not just one thing.

One thing I haven't yet had a chance to talk about much in this committee is the fact that, while some of the over-credentialed working class is born in Canada—and part of the problem, therefore, is how our post-secondary institutions are aligning with the labour market—in many cases, immigrants find themselves in the working class but may have credentials from abroad that are not recognized here. That's just an example of how this issue hits the population in two very different ways. I think you can see that this could happen along many demographic differences as well, but that's one I would point to. If there's one cause that I would point to and haven't had a chance to talk about, it's that foreign credential issue.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Maybe to add to that, I do think that there is a sense that young people are not always fully available to work, absolutely, but they're all looking for a way to contribute, and that way can be through experiential learning. That's something that we've seen. You don't need to be in the labour market to participate in experiential learning programs, whether that is in technology or in health care. Those learning programs bring experience into the classroom and prepare people for the workplace, and I think we see higher postgraduate employment rates when students have had those opportunities during school.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Gill. We will conclude with a round for the opposition to the government.

We have Ms. Falk for five minutes.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Again, thank you to our witnesses.

Ms. Watts-Rynard, I want to thank you for pointing out what private business does for education. I'm in a neck of the woods where a lot of energy companies are donating space, learning and work experience for a lot of these people—young adults and even adults—because a lot of people, after they've received a degree, are going back to the trades to get the experience that they need to be able to go into the workforce. I think it's important to recognize that this is not coming from government; it's coming from the businesses that are employing our constituents and Canadians across the country.

Mr. Nauta, you spoke about the dignity of a person, and I'm wondering why employment is particularly important for young people in helping them to build a positive future. I see that as a foundation that they need that for the next step in life.

[Renze Nauta]

That's right, absolutely.

Employment has a character different from some other spheres of life, in that if you don't meet certain expectations, you won't necessarily last long in the workplace. That can sound quite negative, but in fact it's a positive thing.

I should broaden that out, though, to say that the dignity of work doesn't come fundamentally from that: It comes from the fact that it is a place where people typically spend a significant portion of their time, about 40 hours a week—and obviously, it can be more or less time than that—in providing their services to the benefit of other people. It is one of the few places that people also encounter strangers. If someone comes into a shop, one of the first questions that they'll be asked is, “Have you been served?” or “May I help you?” It's one of the few places where we interact with people we don't know in a positive way. I think this contributes to a sense of service. It contributes to a sense of virtue as well, in how we interact with the world.

Fundamentally, as I said earlier, it's about taking your talents and your gifts, and your time as well, and putting them at the service of other people. The workplace is one of the fundamental places that we do that.

I should broaden that out briefly to say that work obviously encapsulates a lot more than that. It can be work in the family home as well, where the same functions are taking place.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

That's for sure. Thank you.

I've been a long-time member of this committee, and we have done a lot of different studies over the years. One of them was on experiential learning. We did a study on that, and I was shocked to hear witness testimony saying to high school students, “Don't go into that trade; that's a dirty job. You don't want to be a plumber. You don't want to be a scaffolder. You need to go to university.”

I come from a very resource-enriched, agriculture-enriched area, and that's how we survive. It's the trades. That's actually how we all survive. We need people. We're in a housing crisis. We need tradespeople to be building our homes and our infrastructure across this country.

For any of the witnesses here, have you seen any good examples, in Canada or elsewhere, where young people are better supported to go directly into trades or other non-degree career paths?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

There are certainly programs. Really every province does have programs that are designed to capture people, usually in high school, to go directly into trades programs for example. I think we just have to accept that the programs themselves are clunky and often used as a way to capture people who might not graduate from high school rather than really thinking about long-term careers. Those programs exist and I think some are successful for some people, but the pathway is not nearly smooth enough. If somebody said they would like to go into the skilled trades, but the person was really good in math, I guarantee the career counsellor would tell them to go to university first. Unfortunately, this includes some tradespeople.