Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I think we're talking about two different issues. I'm going to surmise here. We ask for original documents because we want to make sure we're doing everything we can to prevent fraud. But obviously if it takes nine months for these things to be turned around, that's a very long period of time. So I understand the concern.

Dick, would you like to comment on this?

[Richard Fadden]

As you may know, Mr. Chairman, one of the objectives of the new system is to integrate the 13 existing systems, many of which are outdated.

Do we have a document management system? Yes, Ms. Faille,we do and we are hoping to make substantial improvements.

As to your question about the nine-month timeframe, we will have to look into that. I don't really know what is causing it.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

The problem is particularly acute at the Montreal offices. When the documents are in Vegreville, there is no problem getting them. However, it is when the documents are transferred to Montreal that problems arise. This of course delays the application for permanent resident status for refugees whose claims have been accepted, in other words, the people whom we have agreed to protect.

Since it is very difficult to get a handle on the overall cost of immigration services, and because more and more people are asking us for information in this area, I would like the department to provide the committee with its most recent version of the model that is used to monitor, coordinate and manage costs.

Immigrant support groups are particularly concerned about the costs of operating your offices abroad. Therefore, could you give me an idea of the number of employees that you have per foreign office and the costs related to providing immigration services, including the regional offices here as well?

You also spoke earlier about the unit costs for visas and additional amounts that would be over and above the $36, as we have read about in the newspapers. Could you provide a graph showing the accurate unit costs for immigration services?

I have no other questions, really. However, I am still intent on having a refugee appeal section, Minister, because I feel it is necessary. In view of the amounts that you have quoted and in view of your requests, is that a definite no? Have you any intention of repealing the act?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I know my friend's interest in this, Mr. Chairman. As I have said before, I'm not closing the door on anything. But if we're going to have a discussion about the refugee appeal division, we have to have a larger discussion about the refugee determination system in general. I'm concerned that the system can be tied up for months and years on end because of the various avenues of appeal people have. One of the things that undermines public support for the refugee system is news reports about the system being tied up for years on end. I'm not opposed to having a discussion about the RAD, but it has to be done in concert with a larger discussion about making the whole system more efficient.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

A brief question and a brief answer, please.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Two weeks ago, someone from the department told us that the officials who were responsible for risk assessment before removal and for humanitarian applications were given two weeks of training, and this gives them the authority to make a decision that is crucial for the life of a refugee who could have greatly benefited from an appeal section.

What concerns me most is access to the justice system. You can appeal a parking ticket, yet there is no means by which to appeal a decision with far greater consequences.

I simply wanted you to be aware of this issue, because I have serious reservations about providing only two weeks of training for someone who has the authority to make such an important decision.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Remember, these are experienced officials who have a tremendous amount of training within the department. They make decisions all the time. They're experienced decision-makers. It's not like they're right out of school and after two weeks they are making those decisions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Minister.

We go to Mr. Devolin.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thanks, Minister, for being here today.

The last time you were here, I mentioned that I had the opportunity to visit the immigration processing facility in Vancouver. Not only did I walk through the offices to see what people were doing, but I had a chance to visit the backroom where all the files are. What struck me was that every file is actually a person. I think that's one thing that makes this department unique; it makes the work you do so important. But it also means that how the system works ultimately affects real people on the other side of those files.

The department introduced the global case management system a few years ago. I understand it's still a work in progress. I'm wondering if you can tell us if you're satisfied with the status of that system today, and if not, what your plans are to improve it.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

First of all, I agree that all those files do represent people. That's why it's important that we do the best job we can to get through those files quickly and efficiently, because in the meantime, people are waiting; their lives are on hold while they wait to be processed.

Global case management will be a big help when it comes to doing that kind of work. It will enable some very old computer systems to finally be upgraded--in some cases after 20 years. They will be able to talk to other computer systems.

I've been in Vegreville, where I've seen our employees taking information from one system and re-inputting it into another system because the computers can't talk together. That is a huge waste, and a waste of time as well, for people who want their cases processed.

Am I satisfied? No. I'd like to see it all come together much more quickly. We've asked the system to do more than it was originally envisioned to do, and that means some delays. We're assiduously working at it, and I get regular updates. Of course, it's not where we'd like it to be. We'd like to have it finished.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you.

On a different issue, this past summer, obviously a major issue was the conflict in the Middle East. Many of us discovered that there were so many Canadian citizens in that area--quite to my surprise, and I think to many people's surprise. The subsequent issue had to do with the cost of getting them out of harm's way. Then the discussion seemed to morph into a conversation about dual citizenship. I actually thought they were two separate issues. One issue was who bears the cost and the second was the dual citizenship.

On the issue of dual citizenship, are there any plans in the works to review that? I think people are curious to know.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

We're not interested in looking at the issue of dual citizenship per se; we want to look at the responsibilities around dual citizenship. I think we're just reflecting a concern that is country-wide. I think Canadians want to know that citizenship means something and that we're not just a port in a storm. If people are going to be citizens of this country, they enjoy the rights and benefits of the greatest nation in the world. At the same time, they also have obligations. Those obligations span the spectrum, from financial, to what we feel is an ethical obligation to do whatever they can to protect this country and promote the values of this country.

We're considering all these things. Again, I think that really reflects where Canadians are at. Canadians love their country very deeply, but they want to know that everyone who is a citizen understands they have the same obligations to support this country, financially, when necessary, but also to promote the values this country stands for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Half a minute.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

It would seem reasonable to me that we would try to determine how many Canadian citizens there are in places around the world. Korea has been in the news recently. Does the Government of Canada have any plans through our embassies to get a sense of how many Canadian citizens there are, especially in places where there's a higher probability of there being a problem?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

This is something the Department of Foreign Affairs is working on. Private think tanks have postulated there could be as many as four million or five million Canadians who have dual citizenship. Some of them would be overseas, some would be in Canada. But the nature of dual citizenship makes it impossible to know if someone leaves the country and accepts citizenship in another country. We don't necessarily know that. It's a difficult number to obtain, but the Department of Foreign Affairs is working on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay.

Mr. Siksay, Mr. Komarnicki, and Madame Folco.

Mr. Siksay, five minutes.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to come back to the dual citizenship issue, Minister. You've said a couple of times you're having a look at the responsibilities--I think I'm quoting you directly--and that you want to have a look at the responsibilities of Canadian citizenship. Is there any formal process under way to do that?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

This is all in the department right now. It's something we're responding to as a result of a lot of feedback we heard from the public on this issue, and we have lots of letters in our department. We probably all, as parliamentarians, received letters on the issue.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I'm still not clear whether there's a formal process under way. You say all in the department and have a look and....

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

No, we're not. We haven't launched a royal commission or anything like that. It's something we're discussing internally.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay. The issue of the Canadian diaspora, does the department have a formal process to...? You said maybe the Department of Foreign Affairs is looking at it, but does the department have anybody looking at the fact that we now have a sizeable diaspora community around the world?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Foreign Affairs is looking at it.

I don't know, Dick, if you have anything more to offer on that.

I'll simply say that it's an issue of some interest to the government in the event that we end up in a similar situation where we have to bring Canadians back home from another country. But that's the extent of what I know about what Foreign Affairs is doing.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

That's fine.

Minister, last Parliament this committee recommended to the minister that the citizenship fee, the initial application fee of around $100 to $125, not be charged to people because we didn't see it was appropriate to have a financial barrier to becoming a Canadian citizen. Is that something you or the department have discussed implementing?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I'm a Conservative, and I'd like to see all the fees eliminated, but the truth is these fees provide us with the ability to offer different types of services. We've started down that road. We've cut the right of permanent residence fee in half. We haven't gone nearly far enough.

I'd love to see lots of these fees eliminated, but we can't do everything at once. I appreciate these concerns. I'm noting what I'm hearing from several members about fees and will be mindful of that when we think about where we want to go with these things in the future.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Earlier, Minister, when Mr. Telegdi was asking about a regularization program, the major concern you seemed to express was that it might compromise our relationship with the United States. I wonder if you could expand on that a little bit.

How does our addressing a domestic issue like the number of undocumented workers who are contributing to our economy and our finding some way of incorporating them into our society in an official way compromise our relationship with the United States?