Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 10th, 2006

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Minister, as I mentioned, I'd like to propose a way of reducing the delays encountered at offices abroad. However, in order to reduce waiting times, we would need to have some statistics on these offices.

On looking into this situation, we discovered that some people had withdrawn their applications because they had grown discouraged over the waiting time, and that a number of other offices seemed to be handling a growing number of applications.

I don't expect you to tell me how you propose to resolve this problem. However, perhaps you could report back to us on the number of applications currently awaiting a final decision, on the number of visas issued and on the overall number of applications either accepted, rejected or withdrawn. Perhaps you could also tell us how long it takes to conduct a security inquiry.

In some of the cases in which we have intervened, the department has been able to issue travel documents very quickly, as well as complete the paperwork required in order to issue visas. However, there seems to be a lingering misconception that security inquiries take a very long time. Could you give us some statistics on this matter?

Earlier, my colleague Johanne Deschamps mentioned problems relating to our embassies in Africa. I don't quite understand what is happening in our Abidjan bureau. Many of the problems being brought to our attention have to do with the Abidjan bureau. The waiting times are incredibly long. Communications with this office are difficult. In my opinion, it also has the poorest record in terms of service. Can you shed any light on the problems at this embassy?

We also have some concerns about residents of the Middle East. Certain countries such as Libya and Syria are locked in age-old conflicts. Libyans who want to apply for permanent residence in Canada must go to the Syrian embassy to file their application.

Surely you see the problem here. I'd like to hear from departmental officials some suggestions and explanations as to how services were chosen. These officials could also let us know exactly how many departmental employees work in each bureau. This information would help the committee get a better grasp of the issue and enable it to focus on solutions.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I am undertaking now to provide you with statistics on decisions, and we will do that.

In terms of some of the other questions, on security delays all I can say is that these are done through CBSA....

I'm sorry, are you talking about visitors' visas, or what are you talking about?

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

No, I was referring to permanent residence applications. The overall selection process involves security inquiries, medical evaluations, a range of tests and travel documents. Each time we make a telephone inquiry, we're told that the delay is due to a security inquiry, whereas RCMP officials tells us that they process these files quickly.

There is a misconception about how the process works and I would like departmental officials to enlighten us, because we no longer know who we should believe.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Yes, thank you for that.

Obviously there are some people who, by virtue of having lived in a number of countries, or for whatever reason, may have their applications held up because more investigation of their background has to be done. CBSA, RCMP, and CSIS are involved in providing these clearances. In many cases it's just a question of a backlog that delays these, so I don't want to mislead people. But in answer to an earlier question, in some cases—25% in the temporary foreign workers programs—it was health and security that were the chief reasons for the delay.

In respect to your questions about Abidjan and about people from Lebanon having to go to Damascus to apply, all I can tell you is that there's always the tension about trying to get the public value and at the same time being conscious of the hardships this will impose on some people who want to apply. There is no easy answer to that, and if changes need to be made based on difficulties in a country like Syria, or long journeys that people have to make which make it almost impossible for them to apply, then those changes will be made. But there will never be a situation where it's always going to be easy for everyone, because we have limited resources.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

We'll have Ed, Bill, and Borys. I think that should pretty well cover it for today.

I think, Ed, you had a brief question.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Generally speaking, I think Blair raised the issue. The demographics are such that we find there are particular needs in various skills and trades, and we find in Alberta that with a booming economy it requires a certain type of people. It seems anybody I might talk to, whether it's truckers, welders, or any group, they find it difficult to acquire people.

I know it's a balance in the sense that we want to be sure we use our Canadian workers that are able to fit the bill, but many times they're not able to find that. Human Resources and Social Development has been doing studies, and if the trend continues to show that there will be shortfalls in all of these areas, it's something we may need to address more specifically.

Yet in the current system of points scoring, we find a lot of qualified people coming into our country who aren't necessarily matched to a particular job waiting for them, resulting in a certain element of frustration. Some of that is credentialling, it's true, but some of that is because they're not being matched up to what our country needs. In the one case we have people coming in, in a significant flow, but no place to place them. Then we have needs, but we don't have people to fill them.

I'm not sure if the provincial nominee program is the type of program we can look to, or whether there's something that can be done within the system itself to say that we should attempt to meet the needs we have through some other systematic means. I'm not sure if you have any thoughts on that or if there are any points you'd like to make.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I think it's one of the most important issues we face. Clearly, in Alberta there's $120 billion in projects in the oil sands that are being delayed by worker shortages, there's $89 billion in B.C., and I don't even know the numbers for the rest of the country. So it is important. It's important to our long-term economic development and, frankly, it's a wonderful opportunity for people from outside the country to come and get Canadian experience, improve their language skills and, potentially, become permanent residents at some point.

This always raises the issue that, if we have them here as temporary foreign workers and we know they can make a contribution, is there a way to allow them to apply and come into the country from within Canada? It's a great question, and I've talked to many of you individually about this. I make no secret of the fact that I would love to see this happen, if it's feasible. These things are always easy to say and difficult to do. There are a lot of challenges to all of these big decisions.

Again, I would love to have some guidance from the committee on some of these things. I mean, there's no question that we're in a commodity boom and on the face of it, it looks like it could last for some time and we'll need workers of this kind. Maybe we need to start thinking along those lines. If the committee has specific ideas and guidance on that, I would love to receive it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have two minutes left.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

There's no question that many of the people who do come here to fill positions are not alone. Not only do they enhance their understanding of our culture and acquire some language skills, they develop a connection to the community and they generally have family members that they would like to bring across as well. So we're not only looking at the individual person but there's a wider perspective to it because there's a sense of community to it. Not only do they contribute to the specific need, but they establish in communities.

Generally, we find there's a great difficulty in having people come to some of the more remote areas outside of Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. There are needs outside of that, and people don't necessarily want to move there. Yet you'll find there are many applicants who would be more than prepared to attend there, provide their skills and abilities and contribute to those communities and to the development of the smaller areas.

I wonder if you have any thoughts or comments on that.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I do. One of the challenges is that we are to some degree a commodity-based economy. A lot of these commodities are in rural areas and a lot of the jobs are being created in these areas. On the other hand, you don't always have a cultural community, for instance, that would be very welcoming to people coming from somewhere else.

There are a number of challenges rolled into this question, but I think they can be addressed. I think there are things that can be done, on the one hand, to attract people to this country and make them feel at home, which gives us the benefit of their economic contribution. But also they enrich our country. If we can find a way to do that, I'd love to see it happen. I'm a big fan of looking for new creative ways to make our immigration system work better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

We'll have five minutes for Bill, and then we'll go to Borys for five and that should pretty well wrap it up.

Bill.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thanks, Chair.

Minister, I have a couple of quick things, and I must say I appreciate the conversation we're having this afternoon. The previous minister would often use up the whole time when you asked him one question. So I very much appreciate the way we've been getting a lot of topics on the agenda this afternoon.

Minister, the previous minister often said that he had a six-point plan, and one of those points was regularization. I'm wondering if when you took over you found a regularization plan under way in the department.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I can truthfully say no. There was no regularization plan under way in the department. There was no money allocated. There was no commitment in the previous government's election platform. I think that speaks volumes.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

It does indeed.

Minister, you mentioned having been impressed with the volunteers who were working in settlement in Calgary when you met with them. One of the backbones of our settlement program and our refugee program has been the private sponsorship program. And in fact Canada won the Nansen Medal on the strength of that program. Now lately it's been in some trouble. There's a huge backlog in it. There are thousands of Canadians waiting to receive and help settle refugees. What's your plan?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

This is something I would love to make a little progress on. Right now there's a big refusal rate when private groups sponsor refugee claimants because it turns out that very often they don't meet the definition of a United Nations refugee. So I think it's a combination of things. I would love to see these groups.... And I know the conversation has begun with a lot of these groups who privately sponsor to say, we need you to be self-regulating in terms of ensuring you're not just picking family members, or try to make sure that people genuinely are, because otherwise you tie up again a lot of resources screening people who aren't necessarily going to be refugees. So the refusal rate has been way too high. It's about 52%. And therefore we only land about I think 3,500 people. I would love to see it quite a bit higher, to be honest.

But I think part of that goes, again, to encouraging groups to be--if I can say this--a bit more responsible about taking the time to screen people they propose to bring to the country. But I'm quite prepared to work with them to see if there's a way to raise the number of landings. I think it's the right thing to do. And the outcomes for people who come as privately sponsored refugees are typically much better because they're coming into a community where they already have people who care about them and want to help. So I think that's the best possible way to bring refugees to the country.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, I have one final question. The live-in caregiver program has had some controversy associated with it over the years, and some of us are concerned that it's a form of temporary worker program where people are often exploited in their work. I know there's been a study. There have been some consultations in the department. I'm wondering if you can tell us if that's going to end up with a report or some specific recommendations for change in that program. And if so, when?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

First of all, I used to know about this program. But it was so many briefings ago that now I've forgotten. Yes, I know this is a concern about the exploitation aspect, and I know that a study has been undertaken. Consultations have been done. We're awaiting the report. And I'm very conscious of the concerns about exploitation. The good side of it is that obviously people can come with not necessarily a degree of any kind and can find their way and eventually become permanent residents, which is great. I am conscious of that. I think one of the first questions I asked when I came to this position was, how do we make sure people aren't exploited in that position?

But you deserve a better answer than that, and we'll get you one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You do have a minute left, Bill. Do you have a follow-up? No. Okay.

Borys, do you have a question? You have five minutes. Go ahead.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to congratulate you on your appointment. And I'd like to clarify something, because you made a comment earlier. You said, on the issue of citizenship revocation, that given the fact that only Mr. Telegdi was raising this, obviously it's not of great importance to this committee. In fact, that's a misunderstanding. And Bill has raised it since.

But what has been happening on this committee is that there's an acknowledgement that Mr. Telegdi is actually the parliamentary authority on this particular issue. And Mr. Komarnicki pointed out that there wasn't unanimous consent; the parliamentary secretary, Hedy Fry, was opposed to this particular issue. However, the four Conservatives...and I wouldn't want to assume that he's giving greater weight to the former parliamentary secretary than he would to the four Conservatives who actually concurred in this particular case. If that's the case, I'm sure that would bring a broad smile to Hedy Fry's face.

But I'd like to move on. Minister, since being appointed, have you issued any ministerial permits?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Yes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

What is the approximate number?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Nineteen was the last number that I saw. It would be a little higher than that--probably 23 or 24.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

A number of people raised the issue of demographic challenges that we're facing as a country. We have the challenge that Blair had raised: an aging population. We also have the demographic challenge of a death rate that exceeds our birth rate, and that gap is increasing. So you have the combination of those as well as economic factors playing into this.

What number of immigrants do we need per year to satisfy those demographic challenges?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

It's not a question of the number of immigrants. It obviously has something to do with age, because if you bring in people who are the same age as the bulk of the population today, you actually just magnify the problem. So I think part of the challenge is to bring in younger people, which is why in the point system you get more points for being younger. That's part of what I think we want to achieve. But I can't tell you off the top exactly what the mix would be.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I think everyone understands that it is a younger immigrant we're looking for. I was actually looking for numbers. So you don't have a number.

There's a backlog of 800,000. What is the median time of that backlog?