Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 6th, 2007

[Michel Jobin]

In fact, in the past, I have had a few files from Egypt.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Have you done any community outreach to the Coptic community? Are you familiar with the Coptic situation in Egypt, besides what you read?

[François Guilbault]

Mr. Chairman, to clarify the issue, I think that the member's code of ethics would not allow a member to approach members of Coptic or Egyptian communities. Just like all the other board members, Mr. Jobin must make each decision on the basis of the evidence in the file. He must not directly contact members of the community or participate in the activities of any given community to make an informed decision. The law requires that decisions be based solely on the evidence present in the file.

As a legal counsellor to a member, I would strongly advise against his participating in the community activities of any community from any country that might be a source of claims on which he would have to make judicial or quasi-judicial decisions.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So what you're stating is, “Here is the book, read it, blindly follow it, and never mind about what is out there.”

[François Guilbault]

A member must give an impartial hearing to the entirety of the evidence tabled before him and base his informed decision on the evidence in each case. The most important thing, especially with regard to human rights and the rights of refugees, is to listen to the persons appearing before you.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Then let me ask another specific question, Mr. Guilbault, to Mr. Jobin.

You have heard cases about Egypt. Can you tell me when the last riots were, against the Coptics?

[Michel Jobin]

Yes, and I can give you some examples of the kind of reading we do, like the texts from Human Rights Watch.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Sir, I asked you specifically when the last riots were, against the Coptics, and I'm sure that translation is not lacking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Why don't we give Mr. Jobin and his counsel a chance to answer the questions before going on to the next question? You have fifteen seconds here.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Specifically, when were the last riots in Egypt against the Coptics? You're an expert. You make decisions. Somebody comes in front of you and says, “I was involved in the riots.” So my question is specifically, when were the last riots, in what month or what year? How long ago were the riots against the Coptics in Egypt?

If I were to come in front of you and say, “I'm a Coptic and I was involved in this”, how would you be able to verify it?

You don't know, do you?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

In any event, we have to move on. We are out of time.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you know when the last riots were, against the Coptics, yes or no? You don't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Order, please.

I'm going to move on now, because we're at six minutes.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I think the witness wants to answer the question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I don't think the witness does. He has indicated his answer on a couple of different occasions, but if he has a follow-up—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

He wants to answer the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Order, please. Order.

Mr. Jobin, do you have a comment to make?

[Michel Jobin]

Mr. Chairman, I have a brief comment.

If I have a very specific question from a claimant from a given country or about a given subject, I will make sure that I have the information before making a final decision on any file.

If you tell me that there was a demonstration in a city in a given a country, and if the claimant alleges that he participated in a demonstration in a given country, but if I do not have this information in the documentary evidence, I will ask our research office to investigate the matter. Before making a decision, I will also ask the claimant to file the evidence—it could be a newspaper clipping—that there was a coptic demonstration in such and such a city in Egypt. I want to see the entire picture before making a decision regarding the claimant who is before me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Jobin.

Our last questioner would be Madame Faille. I think you have some questions.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

At the documentation centre, how often do you update information from the Middle East and North Africa, for instance, where the situation is constantly getting worse?

Earlier, I heard Ms. Corriveau's description of the different kinds of decisions. This almost amounts to saying that the human rights situation has improved in those countries, whereas last year, organizations mandated by Parliament drew our attention to problems that needed solving. Among others, there was the Rights and Democracy organization.

I do not know if you are aware of this organization that was created and funded by Parliament. This organization deals with human rights and it is currently present in Afghanistan. Perhaps there is not a civil conflict with people killing each other in the streets, but with regard to its functioning as a state, Afghanistan is far from being a democracy. It is a democracy on paper, but on the ground, the situation is totally different.

There are human rights organizations that work on an international level. Therefore, it is important for me to read the reports that I regularly receive and that I religiously read every month to get this kind of information. I also make trips to Europe. Amnesty International also covers certain situations and let us not forget the work done by UNESCO. The situation has not improved in those countries.

This was a comment. I will not ask any questions.

However, if we have succeeded in raising your awareness today regarding events in the Middle East, perhaps we have made some progress. In my preamble, I said that I did not want to be harsh with you, but the situation on the ground is entirely different.

You hear 16 cases every month. We hear 16 cases every week in our offices. We have full-time employees. We review the decisions and we find mistakes. People can appeal to Federal Court and challenge unreasonable decisions. I do not know if you are aware of the number of applications that the Federal Court turns down. We must get leave from Federal Court, and hearings are rarely granted. They only allow 1 case out of 10. In criminal court, there is a right to appeal, but not for refugees. We can challenge a parking ticket, but we cannot appeal a decision made by the IRB.

I know that this does not concern the IRB, but are you aware of the current state of pre-removal risk assessments? I do not know whether you are aware of the fact that humanitarian considerations are a legislative free-for-all. Almost anything goes. Some decisions have severe consequences. Some can even be tragic.

I do not understand how grandparents can be returned to Palestinian refugee camps; I do not understand how three children, three girls who are Canadian citizens born in Canada can be sent to Bangladesh while we are aware of the situation in that country; I do not understand how a person recognized under the human rights rubric can be sent back to Tunisia.

When I traveled to Tunisia with a United Nations observation mission, the fact that I was there, that I showed up at the airport, prevented a person from being arrested by the Department of the Interior. I do not know if you have already experienced this feeling, as you sit behind your desks and read documents, but we, as members of Parliament, have responsibilities. Citizens and other people come to us. We are not more sensitive than you are, but currently, we are simply caught off guard.

In your preamble, you said that the legislation had been democratically adopted by the House and that the provision had not been implemented by successive governments. This is not your fault and it is not necessarily the fault of the MPs. The responsibility rests with government and political factors.

I want you to understand, as you sit on your bench and make decisions, that the file does not end at the time of your decision, life goes on; we are dealing with human beings.

This is the message that I want to get across.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

That's the last questioner we have.

I want to thank you, Mr. Jobin, Ms. Silvestri Corriveau, and Mr. Guilbault, for your attendance today and for the information you've given the committee. I'm sure we'll be able to use a lot of this information in our coming meetings.

We'll wait for a moment until the table is cleared and then we will have to deal with motions again.

Thank you again for coming.

We will now move on to a couple of items we have here. The first one, of course, is Mr. Siksay's motion.

I'll go to Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I think folks have a copy of the motion in front of them.

Chair, at the beginning I'd like to ask if we can have a friendly amendment to update the number of days that the hunger strike has gone on. The numbers were accurate the day the motion was tabled, but they should read, for Mr. Mahjoub, 75 instead of 69.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

What part of it is that?

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

It's in the third “Whereas”. It should be 75 instead of 69 and 64 instead of 58. That would be accurate for today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That looks okay.

Move on.