Evidence of meeting #34 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was irb.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Isn't this the issue that Mr. Karygiannis was raising in Kingston? You have people detained or under severe restrictions, which in and of itself is an area of concern because of national security interests.
Coordinator, Refugees, Canadian Francophone Section, Amnesty International Canada
But they're not charged. We don't even know what people have against them.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
The fact of the matter is—and perhaps, Mr. Goldman, I would disagree with your comments—they do get a pretty precise summary of the case against them when it's a matter of national security.
Wouldn't you agree with me, Mr. Goldman?
Coordinator, Refugees, Canadian Francophone Section, Amnesty International Canada
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
They don't get a summary of their evidence? I'll ask Mr. Goldman that, because I think he would know differently.
Conservative
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
I don't plead national security cases. I know they have no access to actual evidence and the possibility of cross-examining or testing it. I can't really say more.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
But you're not aware of whether or not they have access to the summary of evidence?
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
I can't say, no.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
With respect to the PRRA officers who presently exist, I understand that at least there was an undertaking this fall when we were at the CCR, the Canadian Council for Refugees, meeting in Montreal. During the course of that meeting, there was an undertaking to enhance the H and C training for PRRA officers, including training of the officers themselves.
Have you been involved in sort of a consultative process in arriving at what that might be, or what process might be followed?
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
What was that?
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
To review the training of officers who dealt with humanitarian and compassionate grounds, as well as with the pre-removal risk assessment process. Have you been involved in a consultative manner with the department with respect to the training and upgrading of officers themselves?
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
No, not so far. It's our understanding that CIC is doing an assessment of PRRA, which will be carried out mainly in March, and that they will be consulting NGOs, including Amnesty International—as far as I know—and the Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes.
But we have not been contacted directly about it. Maybe CIC has provided you with more details about their PRRA review.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for coming.
Amnesty International is an important organization in Canada, and it's very active in British Columbia and in west Vancouver, which is my home riding.
The question I have for you is, what are the variations in the acceptance rates between the various appeals officers? Specifically, I'm looking for those for western versus eastern Canada.
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
Are you talking about the pre-removal risk assessment?
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
Between about 1% and 3%, I believe.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
But do you know what the differences are on a regional basis? Is Quebec more lenient than Ontario and Ontario more lenient than British Columbia, or is it fairly consistent?
Coordinator, Refugees, Canadian Francophone Section, Amnesty International Canada
Quebec is at the bottom of the pile. I seem to recall, in recent statistics, having seen that, for PRRA, western Canada seems to have a higher acceptance rate, particularly B.C.
Richard, you have more recent statistics.
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
We have actually just been given some statistics. In British Columbia, it seems to be about 3%; in the prairies, less than 1%; Ontario, 1%; and Quebec, 1%—although we have heard that the national total is 3%. It seems to be between 1% and 3% everywhere. There's no place where it's 10% or 15%.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
I wonder if you could go back and elaborate just a little bit more on the discussion you had earlier when you were talking about cost savings with respect to the ways in which RAD could be implemented. You were saying something specifically about there being people who are filing now just to have three months' extra stay in Canada, versus, if we implemented the RAD system, there would be no stay. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that?
Coordinator, Refugee Protection, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
Yes. Right now when somebody receives an Immigration and Refugee Board decision, a negative decision, they have the option of filing at Federal Court for judicial review, although about 90% of them are not even granted permission to have a hearing.
Some of them have excellent cases and have every reason to apply for a judicial review, and some of them even succeed, a very small percentage. However, some don't, and the reality is that there's a strong incentive, even for those who may not have a good case, to file simply because it buys them an extra three months or so when everything is suspended.
The way I understand the RAD was supposed to be implemented, you would have your IRB decision, and if it was negative, you would go to the Refugee Appeal Division. But then after that if it was negative, you would not benefit from any stay of removal proceedings by filing at Federal Court. Therefore, there would be absolutely no incentive for anyone, except those who had a very strong case, to file. There would be no reason to file a frivolous claim at Federal Court, and from what we hear from the Federal Court, this is an enormously time-consuming procedure they have to deal with in which most of them get rejected.
As you know, Federal Court judges, deservedly, get a high salary. Therefore, their time is very costly to the Canadian taxpayer. Therefore, we believe that actually this particular configuration of things, which it is my understanding was the original idea of how it was supposed to work, would involve a considerable savings to the taxpayer.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us.
In your submission you mentioned your concern that we are sending people back to countries where they are at risk of persecution, at risk of torture, and at risk of cruel and unusual punishment. So in how many countries would you consider it unsafe for people to be returning back?
