Evidence of meeting #46 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rad.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Malcolm Brown  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Micheline Aucoin  Director General, Refugees Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Eric Stevens  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Paul Aterman  Director General, Operations Branch, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

1 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I think he is a veteran on these committees. He knows that when things don't work in favour of a particular side of the table it doesn't mean you can start yelling “point of order” and try to change the rules accordingly.

Now that it has been so confused, I want to read my motion once again. I know it has already been registered, but I want to read it again. I think it's clear that if we are going to have a chance to be able to get through this process in a friendly manner--and that's exactly the point I was making before I was cut off....

Mr. Telegdi actually had the chance to preside over this committee, and I was one of the critics on the other side. One of the efforts we made on this committee was to have participation that was open, that was friendly, and that was non-partisan. So I'm quite confused, especially when I move a motion like this, where--

1 p.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

More bad news for the Conservatives.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order.

March 29th, 2007 / 1 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

It seems to me, if there are relevant questions to be asked about RAD, we should be able to ask them in this particular forum. If we do have to change the time slightly, I think there should be at least the goodwill on behalf of committee members to be able to do this.

I don't usually move motions like this, nor do I speak on particular motions of this nature, but I must admit I was offended in the first round of questioning, as I mentioned. When we did have the ability to ask further questions, we were looking at changing the format according to the schedule. I know we've done that many times.

I sit on the steering committee with a number of members on the other side, and often what's determined at the steering committee is changed here at a particular committee if the majority of members don't agree with it. I know that in this particular case, to ask for slightly more time of witnesses, even though I know we have a very packed committee, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to look over even potentially delaying witnesses. At the last meeting, I remember that we were going through the detention certificates report, and there were witnesses waiting, Mr. Chair. I felt sorry for them, yet our committee decided that we were going to send them home in order to continue on with the study of our report.

All my motion is speaking to is the particular fact that right now, if we want the ability to ask further questions, I don't think there should be any reason not to. There were legitimate efforts on behalf of members to find out, as we talked about, what sort of backlog is going to exist with this RAD if it's implemented and what sort of timeline will exist with the RAD if we are going to pass it.

Just because the opposition says so, and although they may have the majority on this committee and pass this bill here and later in the House, it doesn't make it so magically. There are going to be implementation issues that the government has to take into consideration, including the cost. We were just informed by Mr. Aterman that in fact it's going to be 7% of the current budget, which is clearly going to have an impact on the backlog position.

Of course, being the Government of Canada, we have to take this into consideration. The opposition doesn't necessarily have to worry about those implementation issues. They can pass anything they like and then simply say it's our problem to put it into effect. For these reasons, it's clear that we must have time to ask further questions. Again, my friendly amendment to the motion is simply suggesting that. Why wouldn't we have the ability to do so?

I know that even the last time around when we had the officials here, I wanted to ask what the minister would do in an appeal decision to RAD, and why the bill would include a provision for the minister to seek judicial review of RAD decisions. I wasn't able to put the questions to the previous witnesses. We would, in the spirit of this amendment that I'm moving, have the ability to actually bring back those witnesses in order for us to get the proper questions in. I think that's something the committee should really take into consideration.

On this refugee appeal division I think we've heard from a number of speakers around the table, including most recently my colleague Barry, who was asking a particular question that I think is a valid one. In the last opportunity I had to actually move a motion here at the committee--and I think it was the last time the committee met--I asked specifically that as a follow-up the committee consider what Barry had asked current witnesses. That was the question of why the previous ministers of immigration, in opposition, had not supported this new Bill C-280. When it comes to RAD, it was obvious to me there were huge splits, huge problems.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Point of order, Mr. Wilson.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

I would like to move that the floor be taken away from Mr. Jaffer and that the microphone on the floor be given to my colleague Mr. McTeague.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I'm told by the clerk that's out of order.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, could we put that to a vote?

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

No, you can't do that. Listen, Blair--

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order.

I'm going to give you a couple of minutes to get this in order, and I'll go back to Mr. Jaffer while you get that.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I've got the floor.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

I challenge your decision not to move the microphone and move the floor to Mr. McTeague. You've made a decision, and I'm challenging your ruling.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

If Mr. Wilson paid attention, he might learn something instead of yelling out points of order.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please, while I confer with the clerk.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Isn't it clear that once I have the floor I can continue speaking to my amendment whether they like it or not? I think that's clear in the rules. It's unfortunate that they're trying to delay democracy.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I'm told by the clerk that it's out of order to move that speaking time be taken away from the individual who is moving the motion.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Challenging the chair is in order.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Challenging the chair is not out of order. I can challenge the ruling.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Yes, you can challenge that ruling if you wish.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

I'd like to challenge your ruling, Mr. Chair. Could you please put it to a vote?

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I have the floor. Doesn't that count for anything in a democracy?

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

It doesn't matter. It's a point of order.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rahim Jaffer Conservative Edmonton Strathcona, AB

It doesn't count in a democracy if you have the floor? Are you willing to take away my democratic right to speak at the committee, Mr. Wilson?